Musings on the DoH endgame in FFXIV

[KrenianKandos]

That's sad because it's a catch 22:

They made a crafting system that could essentially be a class progress of its own and their ideology is not there. It's almost like they dangled a carrot in front of a horse and the horse honestly sees the treat but never will get it.

I dunno, since the days of Ultima Online, I've yearned for a game that has a great battle system and class system but, as well, an economy based on players and the crafting/gathering class. Maybe seeing the system as strong as it is being thought about as an afterthought more than anything is frustrating.

[APilgrim]

One thing that immediately came to mind after reading point 1 was "how is this any different than one craft relying on another crafter/gatherer for mats?" or "how is this different from a crafter relying on DoW/M to get skin from mobs?". The concept itself is nothing new, the means DoW/M is really the only difference... in other words for the crafter, nothing's changed.

As a crafter I really wouldn't mind if it were just that DoW/M were suddenly part of the gathering/mat supplier picture (I'd probably even enjoy using my DoW/M jobs to increase profit). It's the NPC vendors selling better stuff for less cost that really destroys the market and changes things.

[Ksenia]

The core reason crafting fails in this game is the same reason it fails in every MMO.

There is no decay.

That and it's a 3:1 cost to replace the crafted over reward gear, using identical content for both.

A system that had reasonable decay and a logical cost for crafted alternatives would mean people would grind in crafted and save their reward, end game stuff for serious content. It still all comes back to no decay means never replaced and that is a nail in any crafting coffin.

[Welsper59]

That's sad because it's a catch 22:

They made a crafting system that could essentially be a class progress of its own and their ideology is not there. It's almost like they dangled a carrot in front of a horse and the horse honestly sees the treat but never will get it.

I dunno, since the days of Ultima Online, I've yearned for a game that has a great battle system and class system but, as well, an economy based on players and the crafting/gathering class. Maybe seeing the system as strong as it is being thought about as an afterthought more than anything is frustrating.

It seems like the reason that the games crafting system is how it is, is because they wanted it to play a larger role (as I mentioned), equal to that of the combat classes. Maybe it was because things weren't going well with 1.0, or because they were just way over their heads, but it didn't work out. They essentially bit off more than they could chew. Thankfully, at least the interactive crafting system itself worked out well.

Star Wars Galaxies is probably the best example I can think of where crafting was generally viewed to be on-par with involvement to combat. The problem was though that it was pretty boring, among other things lol.

As a crafter I really wouldn't mind if it were just that DoW/M were suddenly part of the gathering/mat supplier picture (I'd probably even enjoy using my DoW/M jobs to increase profit). It's the NPC vendors selling better stuff for less cost that really destroys the market and changes things.

I certainly agree with you on that. The convenience of it however is second to none. The up side is that there are hq versions that can only be acquired through kills or crafts themselves. Not exactly something to offset that, but it's still worth a small mention. But then comes the more expensive areas of crafting, which is generally the 30s and on. Most relevant goods can't be purchased through the NPCs at that point, some of the lesser items, sure, but the significant parts of the craft usually can't. Skins are definitely a worthy mention of where DoW/M remains the only means to get those things at aldgoat and higher (besides spending leves on random chance rewards of relevant level).

[Leknaat]

Personally I'm expecting the coke/peacock ore etc to cost fewer philos come 2.1 that or the recipies will require fewer items.

[APilgrim]

Personally I'm expecting the coke/peacock ore etc to cost fewer philos come 2.1 that or the recipies will require fewer items.

I totally think the same thing (or in addition, they could just increase the supply of tomes gained in/from new content which would have the same effect).

[Quesse]

That's sad because it's a catch 22:

They made a crafting system that could essentially be a class progress of its own and their ideology is not there. It's almost like they dangled a carrot in front of a horse and the horse honestly sees the treat but never will get it.

I dunno, since the days of Ultima Online, I've yearned for a game that has a great battle system and class system but, as well, an economy based on players and the crafting/gathering class. Maybe seeing the system as strong as it is being thought about as an afterthought more than anything is frustrating.

What is frustrating about this is that you're not the only one. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way because Yoshi and others focus on PVE/Endgame/DoW/M and say this is where the focus is. Well, sure, that is where the focus becomes. Meanwhile there is a huge vacuum for in-depth meaningful crafting/gathering content. So we see no real innovation in the progression of DoH/L and then Yoshi ends up saying - Look people are not really that interested in crafting/gathering. >.>

[Zellata]

The economic issue is that DoW/M can get tiers of end-game items for less cost from NPC vendors using the same tomes that can be used to purchase end game crafting materials.

DL gear is worse than crafted 2-star gear that is fully melded, so players have a choice of getting expensive good item from crafter or inexpensive not-so-good item from vendor.

I'm not going to regurgitate everything APilgrim said but he's pretty much spot on.
I will just add this: Endgame DoH have to go into a DoW/M job to actually continue their progression if they don't want to be gouged by DoW/M trying to sell these items. To maximize profit without incurring penalties, one HAS to level a DoW/M to get the Myth tokens to buy said gear to craft it. That's the only option DoH has.

What are you talking about? DoH don't use or craft any AF2 (myth) gear.

[Nenin]

DL gear is worse than crafted 2-star gear that is fully melded, so players have a choice of getting expensive good item from crafter or inexpensive not-so-good item from vendor.



What are you talking about? DoH don't use or craft any AF2 (myth) gear.

I'm pretty sure he meant philo tomes.

The crafting system they have created is amazing. I love all the mechanics but what it's really missing is specialty crafts. Once you hit 50 in all crafts you have zero advantage over anyone else with the same. You are no better at making potions, or making weapons.

I'd REALLY like a job system in this for crafters. Say once you hit 50 leatherworker the next quest after you've finished the class quests (or gotten the luminary) is one to pick between 2-3 different leatherworking jobs. I can imagine all the usual routes like macesmiths, shieldsmiths, dragonskin leatherworkers. Alchemists could be useful again by either specializing in a job that grants them access to great potions. Or they could choose to gain the ability to convert electrum into rose gold, you get the idea.

The way the system is now I hit 50 with a new craft and within 20 mins I'm fully stat capped and sometimes already have the luminary wep. It's kinda nuts that you can COMPLETELY finish a craft that soon. You could say I still haven't crafted one of every item in the log or finished the HQ achievement but those don't grant any rewards like the luminary.

[Rbstr]

DL gear is worse than crafted 2-star gear that is fully melded, so players have a choice of getting expensive good item from crafter or inexpensive not-so-good item from vendor.

Yeah, but it's not 3x the tomes and countless failed melds better. If you're at that point you're in Coil getting drops and buying AF2, which is better.

In the end I don't see how crafting in an MMO can truly be sustained if there's no way to remove items from the game so they need replacement. There has to be gear turn-over. Otherwise everyone gets their stuff and there's an increasingly limited pool of new sells. Especially when crafted gear is very nearly irrelevant with DL being much cheaper and often "good enough" and AF2/Allagan being better...EVE is about the only MMO to circumvent that, because items die and even though there are some awesome drops being on a budget is important.