Musings on the DoH endgame in FFXIV

[Phaylis]

Yoshi doesn't want crafting to provide BiS gear. Though I think that you should be able gear that is competitive with dungeon gear. Since rng drop in general suck to gear up having competitive crafting gear to fill in the holes would be great. Unfortunately most of the endgame crafting gear mats area rng as well or cost more tomes to farm than getting the DL equivalent. I don't really except DL gear as dungeon gear or raid gear just filler between level 50 4-8 man dungeon and Coil. If I take a craft to 50 I should be able to make slightly less to equivalent, if hq gear as DL gear.

Now I Know there are some nice 2 star craftables however for the cost and time to make relics are superior and are easier to obtain in general. Would be great as well when vanity slots become available to allow us to make some nostalgia gear like scorp harness or hauby.

[Quesse]

The dichotomy between the promise of actual DoH classes and what they realistically bring to the table is ridiculous. The great irony is that crafting in a Final Fantasy game has never been more engaging - but at the same time never been so useless. Besides some very occasional Militia gear and pre-relics, the entirety of endgame crafting consists of making HQ gear for other crafters (quests and AF). 2 star gear is a curiosity at best for all the good reasons listed by posters before me. Guaranteed HQs will eventually make mincemeat out of the markets when the majority finally figures out that there is no difficulty difference besides pushing a few extra buttons. Already I see HQ/NQ selling about the same in some instances and even HQ less than NQ.
When 1.0 was released I was convinced that by making DoH clases, on par with DoW/M, meant that they would be privy to all the same privileges - quests, parties, gear, storyline, etc. The potential was absolutely enormous - and all we got was Hamlet Defense. Crafting will never be key to this game and that's the way Yoshi wants it. It is a sideshow only.

[Welsper59]

One thing that immediately came to mind after reading point 1 was "how is this any different than one craft relying on another crafter/gatherer for mats?" or "how is this different from a crafter relying on DoW/M to get skin from mobs?". The concept itself is nothing new, the means DoW/M is really the only difference... in other words for the crafter, nothing's changed.

You're looking at crafting as though it is the primary focus for something greater than what it is. In 1.0, prior to Yoshi-P taking over, they wanted it to be that way... but that didn't pan out well. It was essentially scrapped, even before the change in leadership. Crafting, despite the interactive/in-depth system for it, is still just a side thing compared to the rest of the game. It will always play a big role for the game, but it will never be on-par to the PvE aspect.

[APilgrim]

One thing that immediately came to mind after reading point 1 was "how is this any different than one craft relying on another crafter/gatherer for mats?" or "how is this different from a crafter relying on DoW/M to get skin from mobs?". The concept itself is nothing new, the means DoW/M is really the only difference... in other words for the crafter, nothing's changed.

As a crafter I really wouldn't mind if it were just that DoW/M were suddenly part of the gathering/mat supplier picture (I'd probably even enjoy using my DoW/M jobs to increase profit). It's the NPC vendors selling better stuff for less cost that really destroys the market and changes things.

[KrenianKandos]

That's sad because it's a catch 22:

They made a crafting system that could essentially be a class progress of its own and their ideology is not there. It's almost like they dangled a carrot in front of a horse and the horse honestly sees the treat but never will get it.

I dunno, since the days of Ultima Online, I've yearned for a game that has a great battle system and class system but, as well, an economy based on players and the crafting/gathering class. Maybe seeing the system as strong as it is being thought about as an afterthought more than anything is frustrating.

[Welsper59]

That's sad because it's a catch 22:

They made a crafting system that could essentially be a class progress of its own and their ideology is not there. It's almost like they dangled a carrot in front of a horse and the horse honestly sees the treat but never will get it.

I dunno, since the days of Ultima Online, I've yearned for a game that has a great battle system and class system but, as well, an economy based on players and the crafting/gathering class. Maybe seeing the system as strong as it is being thought about as an afterthought more than anything is frustrating.

It seems like the reason that the games crafting system is how it is, is because they wanted it to play a larger role (as I mentioned), equal to that of the combat classes. Maybe it was because things weren't going well with 1.0, or because they were just way over their heads, but it didn't work out. They essentially bit off more than they could chew. Thankfully, at least the interactive crafting system itself worked out well.

Star Wars Galaxies is probably the best example I can think of where crafting was generally viewed to be on-par with involvement to combat. The problem was though that it was pretty boring, among other things lol.

As a crafter I really wouldn't mind if it were just that DoW/M were suddenly part of the gathering/mat supplier picture (I'd probably even enjoy using my DoW/M jobs to increase profit). It's the NPC vendors selling better stuff for less cost that really destroys the market and changes things.

I certainly agree with you on that. The convenience of it however is second to none. The up side is that there are hq versions that can only be acquired through kills or crafts themselves. Not exactly something to offset that, but it's still worth a small mention. But then comes the more expensive areas of crafting, which is generally the 30s and on. Most relevant goods can't be purchased through the NPCs at that point, some of the lesser items, sure, but the significant parts of the craft usually can't. Skins are definitely a worthy mention of where DoW/M remains the only means to get those things at aldgoat and higher (besides spending leves on random chance rewards of relevant level).

[Quesse]

That's sad because it's a catch 22:

They made a crafting system that could essentially be a class progress of its own and their ideology is not there. It's almost like they dangled a carrot in front of a horse and the horse honestly sees the treat but never will get it.

I dunno, since the days of Ultima Online, I've yearned for a game that has a great battle system and class system but, as well, an economy based on players and the crafting/gathering class. Maybe seeing the system as strong as it is being thought about as an afterthought more than anything is frustrating.

What is frustrating about this is that you're not the only one. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way because Yoshi and others focus on PVE/Endgame/DoW/M and say this is where the focus is. Well, sure, that is where the focus becomes. Meanwhile there is a huge vacuum for in-depth meaningful crafting/gathering content. So we see no real innovation in the progression of DoH/L and then Yoshi ends up saying - Look people are not really that interested in crafting/gathering. >.>

[Xystic]

Once you hit 50 in all crafts you have zero advantage over anyone else with the same

Even with specialization, you are still at zero advantage. It is only possible if you limit the number of people specializing or if you are the only one which highly is unlikely.

We also have to keep in mind that the goal of the game is to save the world. I do agree with professions providing up to par but slightly less from endgame content material. Allowing BIS items to crafting professions will result in everyone raiding professions and not saving the world. This has been seen in many other large MMOs. This is a no no.

Yoshi and others focus on PVE/Endgame/DoW/M and say this is where the focus is.

Because you must produce a source of consumption first before you can focus on professions. If no one is consuming your goods, they are worth nothing and they pile up.

[Nenin]

Even with specialization, you are still at zero advantage. It is only possible if you limit the number of people specializing or if you are the only one which highly is unlikely.

We also have to keep in mind that the goal of the game is to save the world. I do agree with professions providing up to par but slightly less from endgame content material. Allowing BIS items to crafting professions will result in everyone raiding professions and not saving the world. This has been seen in many other large MMOs. This is a no no.

Yea what I meant with the job idea is you pick one of the 2 or 3 options for each class. Not the battle system where you can max out every job, these would be mutually exclusive.

I don't think you need to limit endgame crafting just so DOW/DOM don't feel useless. The way it is currently there is NO endgame for crafters, but there is for rich crafters who also play DOW/DOM. The highest item level you can get for crafting gear is 55 and you have no wiggle room with any item except materia choices for your HQ militia offhand.

Meanwhile battle classes have a lvl 55 job set, a lvl 55 crafted set, a lvl 70 tome set, a lvl 70 crafted set, a lvl 90 tome set, tons of 50-90 offset pieces, and lvl 80 gear on the way.

I just want a longterm goal for crafters. Even if it's a purely cosmetic change like the luminary tools that's something.

[Ksenia]

The core reason crafting fails in this game is the same reason it fails in every MMO.

There is no decay.

That and it's a 3:1 cost to replace the crafted over reward gear, using identical content for both.

A system that had reasonable decay and a logical cost for crafted alternatives would mean people would grind in crafted and save their reward, end game stuff for serious content. It still all comes back to no decay means never replaced and that is a nail in any crafting coffin.