Musings on the DoH endgame in FFXIV

[Zellata]

Frankly, I don't even see what the issue is. DoH buys mats from DoL and DoW, makes an item, sells it to another DoH/DoL/DoW for a profit. DoL gathers mats, sells them to DoH for a profit. DoW farms philo tomes, buys philo items, sells them to DoH for a profit. Looks like a working economy for me.

[Reokudo]

The system is fine to me. Nobody should be forced to level something they don't want to just to make money. I.E you're primarily DOW/DOM and don't give a rats ass about DOL/DOH. That's their method of making income. Either way, this makes an economy as Zellata said.

[Laryndra]

The only gripe i have with crafting is that we cannot craft things of equal level/usefullness to the dungeons. Alongside allagan and AF2 should be a crafted set. I think that materials for it should drop FROM coil and should not be in conflict with the tomes of mythology.. Or the mythology --> item conversion should be the same, giving players a choice.

[APilgrim]

Frankly, I don't even see what the issue is. DoH buys mats from DoL and DoW, makes an item, sells it to another DoH/DoL/DoW for a profit. DoL gathers mats, sells them to DoH for a profit. DoW farms philo tomes, buys philo items, sells them to DoH for a profit. Looks like a working economy for me.

The economic issue is that DoW/M can get tiers of end-game items for less cost from NPC vendors using the same tomes that can be used to purchase end game crafting materials. This results in a dramatic decrease in demand for crafted items at end-game; while simultaneously increases the expense on the part of a producer/crafter: end-game for crafting is not a free market (as a part of a 'working economy') because of the impact of end game NPC vendors and items. Think of it economically as Crony Capitalism with the SE regime deciding the NPC vendors are suddenly going to be the economic winners and player-crafters will be the losers by inflating end game crafting materials in price arbitrarily while killing demand. Or another way economically: the opportunity cost of purchasing AND producing crafted items at end game is too high to do otherwise for most rational purchasers or producers.

DoW/M having access to purchase end game crafting materials at arbitrarily inflated prices (set by SE) is just an extension of the artificially inflated end game economy that pushes out crafters in the first place. And it does more to make the niche BiS items where there is some demand from crafters cost more for DoW/M to actually purchase than need be in a truly functional free market tied into a larger working economy.

Although there are crafted items that are BiS at end-game - for the most part, the economic "end-game" for crafters is going back to making mid-level items for sale on the market while there is still a large number of players leveling up, or offering melding services for tips... it's kind of pointless to level DoH past level 45 if you want to craft items and sale them for profit within an actual working economy.

[And yes, I know there are exceptions in both items and crafters making gil at end game - just pointing out the economic issue/problem at play that leading to the end game complaints.]

[KrenianKandos]

I'm not going to regurgitate everything APilgrim said but he's pretty much spot on.

I will just add this: Endgame DoH have to go into a DoW/M job to actually continue their progression if they don't want to be gouged by DoW/M trying to sell these items. To maximize profit without incurring penalties, one HAS to level a DoW/M to get the Myth tokens to buy said gear to craft it. That's the only option DoH has.

DoW/M can simply get DL gear and then Coil gear and when 2.1 comes out, CT gear to help with their progression. There is no need to go DoH at any time if one does not want for progression sake.

[Estellios]

You must have missed the dev talk about it ages ago but you are expected to have a DoW/DoM class, so that isn't anything people can complain about anymore. They aren't catering to people that only want to craft/gather anymore, it's not even being advertised as such where the original was and you would have a valid argument.

And you are seriously underestimating how many people are looking forward to housing.

The only gripe i have with crafting is that we cannot craft things of equal level/usefullness to the dungeons. Alongside allagan and AF2 should be a crafted set. I think that materials for it should drop FROM coil and should not be in conflict with the tomes of mythology.. Or the mythology --> item conversion should be the same, giving players a choice.

This however I believe is a good request. Crafted gear takes more work but it has better potential and you get to pick the color so it is appealing for quite a few people.

[Phaylis]

Yoshi doesn't want crafting to provide BiS gear. Though I think that you should be able gear that is competitive with dungeon gear. Since rng drop in general suck to gear up having competitive crafting gear to fill in the holes would be great. Unfortunately most of the endgame crafting gear mats area rng as well or cost more tomes to farm than getting the DL equivalent. I don't really except DL gear as dungeon gear or raid gear just filler between level 50 4-8 man dungeon and Coil. If I take a craft to 50 I should be able to make slightly less to equivalent, if hq gear as DL gear.

Now I Know there are some nice 2 star craftables however for the cost and time to make relics are superior and are easier to obtain in general. Would be great as well when vanity slots become available to allow us to make some nostalgia gear like scorp harness or hauby.

[Ksenia]

Some HQ items melded correctly are BIS even with ilvl 90 gear currently available. I'm not sure where you are coming up with this Crystal Tower will make DoH out of business idea.

The trouble with this false logic is you don't understand the way mechanics are working in this game.

Titan HM is what it was in 1.00 only they hid it in ARR. He is a level 110 kill. So no matter how good my stats are on my iL70 gear, they will never be as good as an iL90 piece when fighting a lv. 110 mob because level gap have far more impacting effects on the way that gear functions than a few points of Str or Dex.

Using gear 20 levels below your kill or 40 levels below your kill. Try gearing level 20 and 40 on a 50 to kill an OW 50 mob, you will see what I mean.

[Quesse]

The dichotomy between the promise of actual DoH classes and what they realistically bring to the table is ridiculous. The great irony is that crafting in a Final Fantasy game has never been more engaging - but at the same time never been so useless. Besides some very occasional Militia gear and pre-relics, the entirety of endgame crafting consists of making HQ gear for other crafters (quests and AF). 2 star gear is a curiosity at best for all the good reasons listed by posters before me. Guaranteed HQs will eventually make mincemeat out of the markets when the majority finally figures out that there is no difficulty difference besides pushing a few extra buttons. Already I see HQ/NQ selling about the same in some instances and even HQ less than NQ.
When 1.0 was released I was convinced that by making DoH clases, on par with DoW/M, meant that they would be privy to all the same privileges - quests, parties, gear, storyline, etc. The potential was absolutely enormous - and all we got was Hamlet Defense. Crafting will never be key to this game and that's the way Yoshi wants it. It is a sideshow only.

[Welsper59]

One thing that immediately came to mind after reading point 1 was "how is this any different than one craft relying on another crafter/gatherer for mats?" or "how is this different from a crafter relying on DoW/M to get skin from mobs?". The concept itself is nothing new, the means DoW/M is really the only difference... in other words for the crafter, nothing's changed.

You're looking at crafting as though it is the primary focus for something greater than what it is. In 1.0, prior to Yoshi-P taking over, they wanted it to be that way... but that didn't pan out well. It was essentially scrapped, even before the change in leadership. Crafting, despite the interactive/in-depth system for it, is still just a side thing compared to the rest of the game. It will always play a big role for the game, but it will never be on-par to the PvE aspect.