Absence of end-game content : the downfall of every MMO.

[Yagrush]

Stop with the comparison with WoW, and stop ignoring the fact that trying to create a dungeon in WoW in vanilla's standards wouldn't take the same effort of making a dungeon or raid to FFXIV's standards.

[Codek]

Coil has 3 bosses, Cadecus, ADS, and Twintania. Molten core had 10 bosses. 3 * 3 = 9, that's over triple the amount of bosses in the release raids of both games.

Clearing molten core to the final boss also didn't take 45 mins, no matter how well you knew the fights, something which my group has been able to do after a single week of clearing turn 1 - > 4 ONCE. Ragnarok and twintania are both equally challenging fights, but that's all coil has going for it, a single final boss.

This isn't even getting into how WOW shipped with Stratholme(Two dungeons in one), Scholomance and LBRS/UBRS at release for non-raid dungeons.

This is my problem, your skewing your numbers.

8/10 bosses in MC were a joke where 90% of the 'challenge' involved cleansing the right stuff and not standing someplace stupid. I give WoW credit that they incetivized most of the bosses to be repeatably killed over and over but that doesn't make it any more engaging. For each some individual players, most of the time the fights came down to watching for one individual part of the fight and just doing your job (Unless you were a hunter, they just came for the loots).

You are picking and choosing your number in favor of your on argument without any set guidelines. I can't even imaging why your excluding turn 4 from the Final Fantasy fights. Hell, even Titan fits into the category of fights where the majority of the raid needs some part of a brain. By excluding the Primal fights (and technically the other 8-man content but that's too much of a joke) your basis seems lost.

So I either see it as (WoW:FF-ARR) 3:4 meaningful fights, Or 11:7 total fights. But we can pick and choose numbers all night long and it still would mean very little in the long run. I'm just not the one blasting a "3 times as many bosses" statement around as if it's fact.

I do agree SE did do a poor job with the early level 50 content. I will add the comment that CM and The Praetorium do also exist as much as we all like to pretend they don't. Also that the WoW dungeons were 90% trash mobs and personally, I wouldn't want to see that kind of content again. It could still be done so much better though.

[Haoma]

How is PVP not end-game? Look around at other mmos and what are people doing end-game.. PVP!

PvP is very rarely restricted to the end of the game; it's its own thing. People are entering WvWvW and flagging for PvP in GW2 at level 30--even lower than that in other MMOs (i.e., Neverwinter, FFXI, SW:TOR, etc.). At best, it's a diversion, not true end game.

snip</3

It doesn't matter what era you're in, games take time and resources to be developed. Now that gamers are expecting their games to follow standards and certain formulaic approaches, expect that it'll take even longer to develop a game and its content; It's not 1991 when a game would cost a couple tens of thousands of dollars to make, and only took about 6 months to a year to be developed and released by a bare bones team. Games haven't been that way since the Nintendo 64 first entered the scene.

We're talking about years upon years of development, hundreds of employees, and millions of dollars. Content costs money to make, so it has to go through a large pipeline (in order to minimize risk) before it gets released. Be realistic.

[Alhanelem]

Number of bosses isn't a meaningful statistic (Also, people are getting it wrong, as ADS is also in turn 1; technically turn 2 is actually 2-5 mini boss fights in addition to the actual main boss- only a couple of the MC bosses are anywhere on the order of any of Coil's bosses)

FFXIV's dungeons don't feel as substantial only because they don't have anywhere near the amount of trash mobs that Wow dungeons have. Major encounters are a larger portion of the dungeon experience.

[samfisher]

I understand what you mean and I'm not that hardcore neither was I expecting TONS of stuff to do. Still, compare this game to the gold standard : WoW.

Dungeons.
Farming AK or CM VS UBRD/LBRD, Scholo, Stratholme.

Raiding.
Coil : 4 pretty short turns with a 5th broken one.
MC : Over 10 bosses (with much more interesting mechanics let's be honest).

Also WoW took a freakin age to develop vs the couple of years FFXIV ARR was in full development.

[TheRac25]

So, FFXI (launch in japan) had end game content without the xilart expansion? Nope not really.

Vanilla Wow had a bunch of Endgame content? Not really, onyxia etc. And Vanilla Wow had the same approach as SE does right now. They had little endgame content, so they made it hard as all get out.

Any new MMO game has little endgame content.

trying to figure out your point
is it:

all my freinds dug their eyeballs out with spoons i think i will too

or

hey im thinking of bringing out a new product and its gonna compete against products of the past, that will work great, oh wait

[chococo]

The game just started. Big patches won't come for a while. 2.1 will come soon and then 2.2 with more things. If it's not popular now (Even though it is), it will be more popular later on. I think you should be grateful a bit since you can work on contents a lot quicker than others. Hitting 50 soon so you can max mythology for example.

I really don't see how MMOs can become more and more popular. Games usually get the most attention before, at, and just a little after launch. Because those who would play would have already played

[zdub303]

Number of bosses isn't a meaningful statistic (Also, people are getting it wrong, as ADS is also in turn 1; technically turn 2 is actually 2-5 mini boss fights in addition to the actual main boss- only a couple of the MC bosses are anywhere on the order of any of Coil's bosses)

FFXIV's dungeons don't feel as substantial only because they don't have anywhere near the amount of trash mobs that Wow dungeons have. Major encounters are a larger portion of the dungeon experience.

So I haven't been to turn 4 yet (raid group ran out of time last weekend) but my group (with two pugs no less) was able to do turns 1 and 2 in about 2 hours with 6 of us brand new to the instance. I would say anything before turn 4 is nowhere near as difficult as MC or Onyxia were at release.

[Fanelan]

Wow introduced new ways to fight bosses. Don't stand in this, dodge this, dance around the boss arena. When WoW came out, this was a new concept and everyone who played had to learn. Eventually, people got used to the mechanics and they became the new way to fight bosses. Now, these mechanics have been around for almost 10 years now, a lot of us are used to them, and this game employs a lot of them. It doesn't add anything super new, the fights just have little room for error.

Saying T1/T2 is easier than MC is a skewed statement due to the fact that we (as gamers) have had 10 years to get used to the mechanics most boss fights use. It's not a sense of the game being easier, but us being smarter. We know to dodge shit, we know how to figure out mechanics, and we also know how to youtube a lot of fights so we can watch successful people do them. We've adapted so the comparison of MC/Onyxia to Coil is pretty skewed.

[Mihlo]

~snip~
Dungeons.
Farming AK or CM VS UBRD/LBRD, Scholo, Stratholme.

Raiding.
Coil : 4 pretty short turns with a 5th broken one.
MC : Over 10 bosses (with much more interesting mechanics let's be honest).
~snip~

You are comparing AK and WP, 4 man minor instances to BRD, Scholomance, and Stratholme, which at launch were 10 man "Raids", hell they were unintentional 40 man "Raids" until Patch 1.3 which set a hard cap at 10 players for those 3 instances.

Endgame for a fresh 60 consisted of repeatedly running Stratholme and BRD until your eyes bled out and the gear you needed dropped, there were no "welfare" tomes of philosophy to trade for raid level gear.

Once you got your gear, all you had to pick from was Onyxia and Molten Core. That was endgame in Vanilla until Patch 1.6, which added Blackwing Lair, 8 months after launch.

Turn 5 has been downed, so its not broken, buggy yes, broken no.