Absence of end-game content : the downfall of every MMO.

[Haoma]

I have to disagree. My friends and I (full-time jobs) in recent mmos got 1.5 years out of Aion, 6mo out of SWTOR, 1 year out of GW2, and we're feeling the boredom now after 2mo in FFXIV. We're waiting it out until the new patch because we do like the game but you can't say we have to "pay the price" when competing mmos don't see these issues 2 months in. IMO all those games had some sort of pvp so our interest was kept.

PvP isn't endgame so that's a moot point.

[Sayura_]

PvP isn't endgame so that's a moot point.

How is PVP not end-game? Look around at other mmos and what are people doing end-game.. PVP!

[Haoma]

How is PVP not end-game? Look around at other mmos and what are people doing end-game.. PVP!

PvP is very rarely restricted to the end of the game; it's its own thing. People are entering WvWvW and flagging for PvP in GW2 at level 30--even lower than that in other MMOs (i.e., Neverwinter, FFXI, SW:TOR, etc.). At best, it's a diversion, not true end game.

snip</3

It doesn't matter what era you're in, games take time and resources to be developed. Now that gamers are expecting their games to follow standards and certain formulaic approaches, expect that it'll take even longer to develop a game and its content; It's not 1991 when a game would cost a couple tens of thousands of dollars to make, and only took about 6 months to a year to be developed and released by a bare bones team. Games haven't been that way since the Nintendo 64 first entered the scene.

We're talking about years upon years of development, hundreds of employees, and millions of dollars. Content costs money to make, so it has to go through a large pipeline (in order to minimize risk) before it gets released. Be realistic.

[Sayura_]

PvP is very rarely restricted to the end of the game; it's its own thing. People are entering WvWvW and flagging for PvP in GW2 at level 30--even lower than that in other MMOs (i.e., Neverwinter, FFXI, SW:TOR, etc.). At best, it's a diversion, not true end game.

WvW/pVp is not a diversion. It's CONTENT. Something many mmos have learned over the years.

[Haoma]

WvW/pVp is not a diversion. It's CONTENT. Something many mmos have learned over the years.

Being a diversion doesn't mean that it's not content; it means that WvW/PvP is a means for the player to escape from the line of progression. But since PvP in many games (including this one) is something that can be participated in long before the player has beaten all--or even most--of the available content, it cannot, by definition, be considered end game. It's simply its own thing altogether.

So, again--moot point.

[Sayura_]

Being a diversion doesn't mean that it's not content; it means that WvW/PvP is a means for the player to escape from the line of progression. But since PvP in many games (including this one) is something that can be participated in long before the player has beaten all--or even most--of the available content, it cannot, by definition, be considered end game. It's simply its own thing altogether.

So, again--moot point.

WvW/PvP has it's own line of progression i.e. GW2 has WvW rank points which give you different skills like carrying more supply.

Quote from Yoshi

"With this PVP system, there's going to be different character systems compared to the PVE version. If you win a battle in PVP, you'll earn points, and when you collect these points you can exchange for certain abilities or skills or equipment dedicated to the PVP system. As such, you can level up your character in a sense within the PVP system."

It's OWN system with it's OWN end-game.

So, again--moot point.

[Haoma]

It's OWN system with it's OWN end-game.

So, again--moot point.

It's simply its own thing altogether.

It's simply its own thing altogether.

It's simply its own thing altogether.

It's simply its own thing altogether.

Beside the point. Why? Because as I've been saying--and as you've just reaffirmed--end game and PvP are two completely different affairs. It can't count as a legitimate end game activity--more-so now that you claim it has its own end game through a line of progression. By saying that, you've essentially concluded that it's a game within the game, and that totally separate game...has absolutely no bearing on the PvE content outside of it.

So: again, again (add as many "again"s as you'd like): PvP is not end game--it can't be by definition, anyway; it's not the last stage of progression, or even an activity restricted to the end of the game--so it being a major distraction for those looking for end game is debatable. The major concern is the fact that not everyone in the end game community cares about PvP; they can skip PvP altogether and not be punished for it. It's simply not part of the main game's line of progression...at all.