[dev1073] Stats without Physical Levels

[Nergui]

This system leaves DoH and DoL classes with inferior attributes and limits customization of any class.

[Sorel]

This system leaves DoH and DoL classes with inferior attributes and limits customization of any class.

True on both counts.

--------------------

On the issue of giving Disciples of Hand & Land inferior attributes growth compared to the Disciples of War & Magic ...

First, crafters and gathers do not use as broad a range of derived stats as warriors and mages do. Crafters and gathers don't use magic accuracy, magic potency, physical accuracy, attack power, physical defense, magical defense, evasion, parry rate, hit points, or magic points. They only use perception, output, gathering, control, craftsmanship, and magical craftsmanship instead. That's 10 to 6. Since crafters and gathers use fewer derived stats, one could argue that they don't need as many stat points. So should a rank 50 Weaver have as much evasion as a rank 50 Archer?

But on the other hand, one can also argue that one of the features that makes FFXIV unique and appealing is the fact that the crafter and gather classes are full-blown classes with equal weight and standing as warrior and mage classes. They just apply their stats to do different things. In this game, getting a Blacksmith to rank 50 is as impressive as getting a Marauder to rank 50 (maybe even moreso). So should a rank 50 Blacksmith be any less strong than a Rank 50 Marauder?

Personally, I'm more in favor of the second argument. I think that Nergui is also of that mindset (but Nergui will have to speak for himself/herself). So if we balance stat gains between ALL the Armory Classes (let's say 4 points per rank), it could maybe look like this.

Gladiator: VIT +2, DEX+1, STR +1
Archer: DEX +2, STR +1, VIT +1
Pugilist: DEX +2, STR +1, VIT +1
Marauder: STR +2, VIT +1, DEX +1
Lancer: STR +2, VIT +1, DEX +1

Conjurer: INT +2, MND +1, PIE +1
Thaumaturge: PIE +2, MND +1, INT +1

Alchemist: INT +2, PIE+2
Armorer: VIT +2, STR +2
Blacksmith: STR +2, MND +2
Carpenter: VIT +2, DEX +2
Culinarian: MND +2, PIE +2
Goldsmith: DEX +2, INT +2
Leatherworker: VIT +2, INT +2
Weaver: DEX +2, MND +2

Botanist: STR +2, INT+2
Miner: VIT +2, MND +2
Fisher: DEX +2, PIE +2

And every rank you gain, regardless of class, will give you 1 extra stat point that you can put in any stat you like.

--------------------

Which brings us to the second issue of the limits this would impose on the customization of any class. Yes, a system like the one above would impose some limits on class customization, but those limits would be so loose they would be better described as "boundaries" instead of limits.

Using a straight Rank 20 Gladiator as an example (VIT +40, DEX +20, STR +20, w/20 customization points), we can outline these "boundary character builds" which would be the extreme limit of customizations.

Very Tough R20 Gladiator: VIT +60, DEX+20, STR+20.
Nimble & Tough R20 Gladiator: VIT +40, DEX +40, STR+20.
Strong & Tough R20 Gladiator: VIT +40, DEX +20, STR+40.

Of course, a player can spend their customization points anyway they choose, as much or as little as they want. They don't have to put them into a stat that's already getting a bonus. They can decide that this particular Gladiator like to read literature and put those points in INT. This becomes interesting if the player has ranked up more than one class on the character.

R10 Gladiator & R10 Conjurer (VIT +20, DEX +10, STR +10, INT +20, MND +10, PIE +10, w/20 customization points).

This character still has 20 customization points from the 20 ranks she earned. She can use those points to bring make her VIT +40, or her INT +40, or any other stat +30 ... or any combination in between.

But Nergui is correct. Even with the level of customization the above system provides, it will be less than what we currently have in the game, right now. Right now, I can make a Gladiator and put every stat point I earn into INT, and completely ignore the other stats. That's an incredible amount of freedom, no doubt. So I can understand how players would not want to give all of that freedom up.

[Nergui]

Character Development

* Battle Attribute Allotment

When it comes to battle, class rank should, by logic, be more important than physical level. The reality of the situation, however, is that attribute point allotment is dependent upon physical level, something that is causing complications in our endeavor to improve the battle system.

In the recent battle poll (thanks to all who participated), we learned that a considerable number of players would be willing to forgo physical levels, but wanted to retain the ability to customize characters through attribute allotment. Armed with this knowledge, we proceeded to formulate the optimal solution.

The decision: attribute point allotment will no longer accompany gains in physical level, and will instead occur when characters rise in class rank. Although the amount in frequency of points awarded will be lower than previously, players will find that each point will have a more profound effect.

From - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...form-Blueprint

While the amount of effort you put into this system is commendable, it would seem the decision has already been made.

Note the responses in this thread - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...oint-allotment!

Many like myself do not like automated point allotment.

[Teknoman]

From - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...form-Blueprint

While the amount of effort you put into this system is commendable, it would seem the decision has already been made.

Note the responses in this thread - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...oint-allotment!

Many like myself do not like automated point allotment.

Its optional. You will have the option to either be automatic or distribute the points yourself.

[Sorel]

Its optional. You will have the option to either be automatic or distribute the points yourself.

Well that's the thing that strikes me as sort of odd.

Why would any player choose automatic, when they have the option of allocating their stat points manually?

I would think that every player cares enough about their character to not leave it to the computer to determine where to put their stats. That may be a false assumption on my part, though.

But if that assumption is not false ... why would the Development Team take the time to build an "automated" stat allocation system "based on class" that no player would likely use ...

... unless you don't have a choice. It MUST be used.

It's entirely possible that the "optional" part in Akihiko Matsui's quote isn't referring to the automated class-based point allocation system, but is actually referring to "optional points" players get in addition to the points provided by the automated class-based allocation system.

If you read the quote over again, and the Letter From The Producer #10 you'll see what I mean.

-NEW-
Shift to automated character development based on class rank, with optional attribute point allotment

The decision: attribute point allotment will no longer accompany gains in physical level, and will instead occur when characters rise in class rank. Although the amount in frequency of points awarded will be lower than previously, players will find that each point will have a more profound effect.

[FedeMax]

Why can the system be, each classes received a amount of points as he gains a level. That will go as a player level, that player grows so he get a amount of points to allocate. Like the current system, you can re-allocate the points if you want for that class only. So I have set my points for my Archer 50 and I am allow to reset them until I can find my personal sweet spot. Then I decided to change to mine level 20 conjury which it has its own points and allocation seperate from mine Archer for a level 20, giving me the freedom to grow mine conjury as I see fit.

At the same time giving the freedom of not having any caps on any of the stats. If a lv 20 gets 50 points I can change my Mage for different setups. ATK 0, DEF 25, DEV 0, INT 10, Mind 10, Piety 5 or change DEF 0, with INT 35. That would make a weak to attack Mage with alot of damage. Giving me the freedom to adjust my class character to my play style.

In conclusion, to use the current system with no caps but each class has it separate group of points to be allocated.

[GreyJorildyn]

It's all well and good that eventually we're getting this custom allotment per class/job/whatever but it makes me wonder if SE can grasp that their attributes don't have to be on such a large scale.

There is something to said, and can be appreciated, about a game where stats don't look like STR 220 DEX 175, etc. And instead are smaller, more understandable numbers. Their scales seem completely arbitrary here and in XI. Can't everything just go to 99? Why do levels stop at 50, but we can have 174 Vitality, 177 attack on a lance, a block of 90 on a shield, 133 def on a hauby, and various other figures that are just difficult to interpret and compare with one another?

Can there be some simplification? I'd rather see a stat system like D20 where each point impacts performance than a system where gear has STR+8 on it and that means what exactly?