[dev1058] Say no to the hate meter.

[Abriael]

After reading the proposed battle changes, I have to say that i'm very excited , and i like pretty much everything I read (of course we'll have to see the actual implementation). There's only one thing that kind of irks me, as someone that played tanks in every single trinity-featuring MMO since the outset of the genre, and before themn, on several MUDs:

The proposed hate meter.

In my opinion the mechanics of aggro should remain hidden to the players, that need to be able to read the behavior of the mob themselves in order to tank effectively, and to avoid grabbing aggro if they are not tanks.

On the other hand an easy to read aggro meter turns what is normally a "art" based on instinct experience and ability into a simple mathematical exercise.
My percentage isn't growing fast enough or is being overwhemed? Easy! provoke more! My percentage growing too fast and i'm a damager? Easy! Stop for a second.

All is easy. I have nothing else to do than following the on screen instructions, that act as nothing else than an unnecessary and unwarranted crutch. What was an epic fight is now turned into easymode guitar hero with swords.
The screen says to press red, you press red, it says to press blue, you press blue. Bo-oh-ring.

In the vast majority of MMORPGs hate meters don't exist, and people tank very well without them. On the other hand, when people move from a MMO where this crutch exists to another, they struggle, because the hate meter gets people used to tank easy mode, effectively making them worse (and often lazy, as they do just what's strictly necessary to keep the hate meter on top of the percentage they need) tanks.

I feel that implementing hate meters goes strongly against the focus on skillful play that seems to be the focal point of this combat reform.
First you want to encourage the satisfaction of playing skillfully, and then you add an immense crutch that gives simple on-screen instructions to follow, removing a large part of the skill needed to tank and to keep aggro away in the case of a damager.

It seems absolutely conflicting to me.

Finally, there's the matter of tension. Battles that are tense and somehow unpredictable are more fun. In MMORPGs with no hate meter, the tension created by the fact that the mob could turn on you unexpectedly (or that you could lose aggro if you don't keep the foot on the gas all the time if you're a tank) adds to the fun.
In MMORPGs that have one, the aggro part battle is just a key pressing exercise in which one follows the on-screen prompt to press the correct keys. There's no tension involved, because you KNOW when the mob is gonna turn and on who, before it even does. Again bo-ho-ring.

Ultimately, as much as I approve wholeheartedly everything else I see on the battle changes blueprint, I'm strongly against the implementation of any aggro-crutches, including the hate meter, as i know for a fact (as I tried it elsewhere), that it'll be a surefire way to lessen my fun and enjoyment in my chosen tanking role.

[Teknoman]

The meter will most likely be optional, just like the enemy icons.

[Abriael]

The meter will most likely be optional, just like the enemy icons.

Making it optional is not a real option. Once you have that kind of crutch, the developer is forced to plan and implement encounters based on the fact that it exists, making the option redundant.
Moreover, if someone in the party uses it, it still influences the whole party, without even mentioning that parties will expect everyone to use it because it makes things easier for everyone.

Such an option simply shouldn't exist. People have tanked without it for ages, with no problems. There's really no need to add such an immense crutch, removing any kind of tension from fights.

I vote Yes to seeing the hate meter.

Actually tanking with your own skills without following the on screen instructions is too challenging for you?



It's that simple. At the moment FFXIV is not really in any way challenging. People have clamored for challenge, the devs have promised challenge. removing the challenge of hate control by providing easy on-screen instructions is nonsensical.

[Gracious]

Making it optional is not a real option. Once you have that kind of crutch, the developer is forced to plan and implement encounters based on the fact that it exists, making the option redundant.
Moreover, if someone in the party uses it, it still influences the whole party, without even mentioning that parties will expect everyone to use it because it makes things easier for everyone.

Such an option simply shouldn't exist. People have tanked without it for ages, with no problems. There's really no need to add such an immense crutch, removing any kind of tension from fights.



Actually tanking with your own skills without following the on screen instructions is too challenging for you?



It's that simple. At the moment FFXIV is not really in any way challenging. People have clamored for challenge, the devs have promised challenge. removing the challenge of hate control by providing easy on-screen instructions is nonsensical.

Ab I generally agree with most of what you have to say but I really think this will be a good thing for the game. This allows better party participation. The Healer will know who has hate and be able to focus on that person. The DD's will know when they are pulling too much hate and adjust. Once things start really heating up with fierce battles this will aid and benefit the party well I think. In fierce battles things go so fast that I would really appreciate a glance item like this to help the party get their goal more proficiently. I understand what you are saying and I know you are very smart I just don't agree with you on this particular subject.

[Abriael]

Ab I generally agree with most of what you have to say but I really think this will be a good thing for the game. This allows better party participation. The Healer will know who has hate and be able to focus on that person.

The healing system is AOE, there's no need for the healer to focus on anyone in particular. Mind you, even if the system were moved to a focus healing system to increase the challenge in healing, a decent healer worth anything should be able to see by himself who's being beaten. It's really elementary.

The DD's will know when they are pulling too much hate and adjust.

Again, an half decent DD should be able to realize by himself that he's pulling too much hate, and adjust. He shouldn't need an on-screen prompt that tells him "hey moron! You're going overboard! Pull back!".

Once things start really heating up with fierce battles this will aid and benefit the party well I think.

If by "benefit" you mean "making things a lot easier", yes, it will. The problem is that such a thing is not a benefit in a game that promises skill-based fights.

In fierce battles things go so fast that I would really appreciate a glance item like this to help the party get their goal more proficiently. I understand what you are saying and I know you are very smart I just don't agree with you on this particular subject.

In fierce battles things go fast in every game, including games that don't have an hate meter (which make the 99% of the market, mind you). People tank and keep hate away just fine in those games. It's one of the things that puts the focus on skill. I doubt that flattening in is a good thing in a round of canges that promise a skill based combat system. It actually goes radically against it.

[Bingo]

YES hate meter. That is all.

[Morticous]

The meter will most likely be optional, just like the enemy icons.

Optional is weak. The playing field should be the same across the board. Lazy people who like "Options" like this one and enemy icons should go play an easy game and stop ruining good MMORPGs.

Your going to end up with people getting pissed at other people in the same party not using these "Optional" items.

EDIT: more meters on my screen? No thanks.

[Irana]

I hope its optional because I really DO NOT SEE any need for it.

[Gracious]

I vote Yes to seeing the hate meter.

[Teknoman]

Why would you have to make the encounter based on the meter? Wouldnt it work by just displaying what is currently unseen (or what would currently be unseen after the new enmity algorithms)?

It just seems like the different between...for instance L.A. Noire showing a life bar instead of what it currently does (no life bar, fades to black and white as you die).

I'm asking because I dont really have any experience with any game that has a hate meter display, but I cant see how someone would have to design a battle or content around displaying what would normally go unseen, even though it would work the same as if it wasnt visible.