The Black Mage Rotations

[Synovius]

I even just retested this. It definitely gets Thunder III extra damage and duration.
I remember saying what Peanut did after launch, because the tooltip is misleading. I also wanted an excuse to use Thunder III because I liked the visual. Someone said to test it myself and I swallowed my words.
You shouldn't take my word for it, but it has been proven for a while now that Thundercloud proc's damage isn't based on the dot it applied off of.

Cool. I'll test it as well when I get home but that makes a lot more sense to me than having it based off of the DoT that was already up. That would be pretty silly IMO.

[MartaDemireux]

What's with the random Fire 2 between Fire 3 and Flare?

As said just before the comparisons, AF&UI were left out and the numbers are based strictly on their base value. Because of this you have 2.5 seconds of doing nothing while waiting on Transpose's 10s timer. A Fire II allows you to fill that time with its 3s cast time.

[Youmu]

I can't bring myself to to use Flare in a ST rotation because the complete dump of mana causes you to have to sit there and do nothing for up to 3 full seconds. Because of this, I don't feel the few hundred extra damage from Flare gains you anything in terms of DPS. In fact, I think it's a DPS loss.

As for Thundercloud procs doing damage based on the DoT that is currently up, are you sure about that? I'll test it out when I get home and confirm/refute.

No, you dont flare with full mana. You use it at the end of your rotation with a swiftcast (hard casting not worth it for ST), since at 251 piety you will have 300 mana left over after your 5th fire, every time. Also consider the following - Firestarter procs on your 5th fire, you go into your bliz/thunder downtime, transpose and use the proc for 70% full damage... or you can use that swiftcast for another flare, keep Astral 3 up, and deal full damage with your proc after the flare, then transpose.

Its very easy to tell which is superior, in practice and theory.

[O-Deka-K]

As said just before the comparisons, AF&UI were left out and the numbers are based strictly on their base value. Because of this you have 2.5 seconds of doing nothing while waiting on Transpose's 10s timer. A Fire II allows you to fill that time with its 3s cast time.

I guess you're only using the base values so that you can provide an approximation. That's fine. However, you can't then turn around and change the rotation based on approximate values! Adding an extra Fire II will significantly lower the damage of that rotation.

Also, you seem to have forgotten that these are AoE rotations. B3 and F3 are single-target attacks. For 1 target, the B3-F3-Flare combo is slightly higher PPS (potency per second). However, for 2 or more targets, the B2-B2-F3-Flare-Transpose combo leaves it in the dust.

I'll do the math with the following assumptions:
- Having the full buff (UI3/AF3) raises your damage to 180% of normal (+80%).
- Having the opposite buff (UI3/AF3) lowers your damage to 70% of normal (-30%).
- Having the opposite buff reduces your cast time by half.
- You're able to get half-casting time on the next two attacks.
- Mana ticks occur every 3s.
- GCD is 2.5s.
- Foe's Requiem increases spell damage by around +15%.

I'm also ignoring startup time so that we can focus on the average PPS of a rotation.

Quick Potency Table (debuffed/normal/buffed):
F1/B1: 105 | 150 | 270
F2/B2: 70 | 100 | 180
F3/B3: 154 | 220 | 396
Flare: 182 | 260 | 468

Mage's Ballad Rotation

(from AF3) Blizzard 3 > Fire 3 > Flare > wait for MP

Time: 9 seconds
B3 (fast) casts in 3.5/2 = 1.75s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
F3 (fast) casts in 3.5/2 = 1.75s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
Flare (fast) casts in 4.0/2 = 2.0s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.

This is a total of 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 = 7.5s. However, because you have to wait for MP, this takes exactly 9s.

Damage:
B3 (AF3) does 154 potency and is single-target.
F3 (UI3) does 154 potency and is single-target.
Flare (AF3) does 468 potency and is multi-target.

PPS = (468 x targets + 154 + 154) / 9

For 1 target, this does 86.2 PPS.
For 2 targets, this does 138.2 PPS.
For 3 targets, this does 190.2 PPS.
For 5 targets, this does 294.2 PPS.
For 7 targets, this does 398.2 PPS.
For 9 targets, this does 502.2 PPS.

Foe's Requiem Rotation

(from AF3) Blizzard 2 > Blizzard 2 > Fire 3 > Flare > Transpose > wait for MP

Time: 12 seconds
B2 (normal) casts in 2.0s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
F3 (fast) casts in 3.5/2 = 1.75s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
Flare (fast) casts in 4.0/2 = 2.0s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
Transpose is instant but takes around 0.5 because of animation.

This is a total of 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 0.5 = 10.5s. However, because you have to wait for MP, this takes exactly 12s.

Damage:
B2 (UI1) does 100 potency and is multi-target.
B2 (UI2) does 100 potency and is multi-target.
F3 (UI3) does 154 potency and is single-target.
Flare (AF3) does 468 potency and is multi-target.

PPS = ((100 + 100 + 468) x targets + 154) / 12

For 1 target, this does 68.5 PPS. Adding +15% gives 78.8 PPS.
For 2 targets, this does 124.2 PPS. Adding +15% gives 142.8 PPS.
For 3 targets, this does 179.8 PPS. Adding +15% gives 206.8 PPS.
For 5 targets, this does 291.2 PPS. Adding +15% gives 334.8 PPS.
For 7 targets, this does 402.5 PPS. Adding +15% gives 462.9 PPS.
For 9 targets, this does 513.8 PPS. Adding +15% gives 590.9 PPS.

[Cha0zb0rn]

well it might be obvious that b2 -> b2->F3 deals more Aoe dmg then a pure b3-> f3 combo but its kinda extremely impractical. the whole blizzard thing is the followup to a flare when ur oom to regain mana and set up a second or third flare, by this time u are prolly pretty high on the enmityscale and the last place u want to be is definatly right between all ur opponents 0.o the only thing that will keep you from dying in such a case will be quelling strikes and that one will be on cd after a use for at least 1-2 trashpacks and if ur really unlucky wont keep at least a few opponents from turning to you at least for 1 attack, especially when ur continuing to built up enmity by spamming b2 0.o

my fav combo is and ever will be f3->3*f2->QS->RS->f2->QC->flare->convert->f2->b3->f3->flare(hi ether->b3->f3->flare (if u don't care about using pots for random trash )->transpose->b1->f3->4*f2->b3->f3->(4*f2(depending on opponents remaining health))->flare. 2 no aggro RS flares in rapid succession, there definatlly isn't anything faster to burn a big group of opponents to ashes in no time in this game.

[Peptaru]

What is that, about 30 or more GCD's worth of stuff you're listing? Two things, first: the fact that it takes that many spells to kill any group of enemies shows that the rotation is weak. Second: the B2's provide nice timing, but I can double flare or F3 -> flare after a B3 just the same. It is just about maximizing damage. There are very few mobs that it is dangerous to stand in the middle of.

If your tank can't keep hate off of you when quelling strikes is down, first, yell at the them. Then ask them to use cover. It is all fairly moot if you kill the packs quickly enough.

[Cha0zb0rn]

it depends on the WHM how long it takes for the opponents to drop dead, usually the last trashpack in wp (whole trash from 2nd to 3rd boss) is dead during the 2nd flare.

and sorry but my RS flares usually deal 2,1k dmg, thats quite a lot even for a ilvl90 pally spamming flash 24/7. and i'm never would trade one of my rs flares or even a rs af3 f2 for a crappy b2.....

edit: btw. I usually don't need manasong during my combo for about 3 flares, so foes song could be up for me as well, negating all of the above described advantages.
its simple logic: flare is the highest hitting AoE spell in the game, that in mind the best possible dmg output against groups of mobs lies within spamming multiple flaes in rapid succession under the influence of all the dmg buffs available for as much flares as possible.

that being said u gotta calculate the possible number of speedflares u can achieve in one interval of RS and fill the gaps with the second strongest blm aoe cast: f2. and ofc keep af 3 up before using flare.

jugling with that information u got ur prioritys straight up:

casting RS af3 flare > keeping af3 up for a flare > speed up flare > buff up flare > fill gaps with rs f2 >>>> fill in gaps with b2 maybe.

the b2 combo helps keeping up sustained AoE dmg without the need of external manasources but it definatly isn'T the most efficient way to deal max amounts of dmg in a minimum of time! that being said u can even skip the f2 after ur convert but u wont find a way to fill in this gap with anything else since u definatly wont get a 3rd af3 flare into a single RS but u still can drop it if u believe ur opponents will drop dead after the 2nd flare.

the only time the b2 combo could be more efficient is the one trashpack where convert is on cd (in our group this usually is the trashpack right before the 2nd boss in wp) since you can only get a double flare there if u use a hi-ether and will definatly need to rely on transpose after that if ur bard isn't playing manasong but even there it highly depends on pala cds and whm dmg output if u even need a 3rd flare.

[O-Deka-K]

my fav combo is and ever will be f3->3*f2->QS->RS->f2->QC->flare->convert->f2->b3->f3->flare(hi ether->b3->f3->flare (if u don't care about using pots for random trash )->transpose->b1->f3->4*f2->b3->f3->(4*f2(depending on opponents remaining health))->flare.

You're arguing a completely different point. I was only comparing the two flat rotations based on the two Bard song effects. Of course when you pop all of your CDs and pots, it's going to increase damage output. That's exactly what you should do in a real situation when they're up. But what do you do when they're down? In your case, your flat rotation starts after the Transpose (and I'm guessing that the B1 should be B3).

I use the B2 combo in WP SR all the time. The only thing you have to do is watch out for AoEs, which isn't tough. You can always side step after the B2-B2 or after Flare because you have a small time buffer.

[Peptaru]

flare is the highest hitting AoE spell in the game, that in mind the best possible dmg output against groups of mobs lies within spamming multiple flaes in rapid succession under the influence of all the dmg buffs available for as much flares as possible.

Then why, oh why, are you using a rotation that uses so many F2 instead of just using more flares? Non-F2 rotations have already been shown to be the strongest.

[Youmu]

We will miss you, double flare out of Umbral 3. Greatest of all time AOE rotation. RIP.