The Black Mage Rotations

[Rainsford]

Thanks So definitely FireIII > Flare > Blizzard III for top AoE DPS (requiring Ballad).

I don't agree with this. With Req up, the standard Tranpose>Blizx2>FIII>Flare rotation will pull off of tanks real, real quick already. I find myself waiting on the MP tick from Ballad more often then off UI when doing what you suggest.

Plus, Ballad = lower Bard damage. When running WP/T4, Req+Standard AOE rotation will kill stuff much quicker then Ballad+F3>F>B3.

[MartaDemireux]

I don't agree with this. With Req up, the standard Tranpose>Blizx2>FIII>Flare rotation will pull off of tanks real, real quick already. I find myself waiting on the MP tick from Ballad more often then off UI when doing what you suggest.

Plus, Ballad = lower Bard damage. When running WP/T4, Req+Standard AOE rotation will kill stuff much quicker then Ballad+F3>F>B3.

I did the math in another thread but I'll put it here so you can see Ballad does indeed pull ahead. If your tank is losing hate, however, I'd assume they weren't using Flash enough. It takes a little getting used to but you can sync your spells up with the Ballad tics so you never end up waiting (they come at set intervals).

Ballad still allows the BLM to DPS harder than with Requiem due to allowing Flare to be used more frequently. For Wanderer's Palace Speed Runs (for ease of numbers I'm not counting AF/UI, spell speed gear or abilities that can only be used once per pull that both rotations would see equal gains from (swiftcast Flares basically)):

Over 2 BLM rotations:

With Ballad up: Fire3>Flare>Bliz3>Fire3>Flare>Bliz3 will produce 1400 potency of damage in 22 seconds. In that time 9 Wide Volleys will produce 792 potency of damage. That's 2192 potency over 9 GCD's (243 potency per GCD). 2192 potency in 22 seconds is roughly 100 potency per second. The BLM needed to cast 6 times.

With Requiem up: Fire3>Flare>Tpose>Bliz2>Bliz2>Fire3>Fire2>Flare>Tpose>Bliz2>Bliz2 will produce 1679 potency of damage in 28 seconds. In that time you could get about 10 Wide Volleys and 1 Rain of Death off for 1200 potency of damage. That's 2879 potency over 11 GCD's (261 potency per GCD). 2889 potency in 28 seconds is roughly 102 potency per second. The BLM needed to cast 11 times.

What we see here is that Ballad allows for the BLM to deal about the same damage in less casts leading to faster kill speed overall. If both rotations were to go for similar lengths Ballad would pull ahead. Once we factor in Skill Speed and Umbral Ice/Astral Fire Ballad will pull ahead even more due to needing to cast more Fire II's under Requiem and Astral Fire greatly favoring higher potency spells. Under Astral Fire we see Fire II getting 180 potency (80 increase) versus 468 potency for Flare (208 increase). (I'm going to go over the math again now that I have more time to include AF and UI bonuses/restrictions)

Additional benefits to this are that it allows a tank to spam Flash to maintain hate without question and allows a WHM to cast Holy in between Cure's without the need to look at their MP. It should be noted that with more Flares being cast you will be generating more enmity which does indeed require the tank to be using Flash on cooldown. With Ballad already applied you save an additional 3 seconds between pulls as well.

tl;dr: In WPSR with BRD & BLM, BRD should full time Ballad (outside of boss fights, Requiem for boss fights), BLM should cast Fire3>Flare>Bliz3 (repeat) for the best DPS. Ballad also allows Flash and Holy spam.

[Waliel]

What's with the random Fire 2 between Fire 3 and Flare?

[MartaDemireux]

What's with the random Fire 2 between Fire 3 and Flare?

As said just before the comparisons, AF&UI were left out and the numbers are based strictly on their base value. Because of this you have 2.5 seconds of doing nothing while waiting on Transpose's 10s timer. A Fire II allows you to fill that time with its 3s cast time.

[O-Deka-K]

As said just before the comparisons, AF&UI were left out and the numbers are based strictly on their base value. Because of this you have 2.5 seconds of doing nothing while waiting on Transpose's 10s timer. A Fire II allows you to fill that time with its 3s cast time.

I guess you're only using the base values so that you can provide an approximation. That's fine. However, you can't then turn around and change the rotation based on approximate values! Adding an extra Fire II will significantly lower the damage of that rotation.

Also, you seem to have forgotten that these are AoE rotations. B3 and F3 are single-target attacks. For 1 target, the B3-F3-Flare combo is slightly higher PPS (potency per second). However, for 2 or more targets, the B2-B2-F3-Flare-Transpose combo leaves it in the dust.

I'll do the math with the following assumptions:
- Having the full buff (UI3/AF3) raises your damage to 180% of normal (+80%).
- Having the opposite buff (UI3/AF3) lowers your damage to 70% of normal (-30%).
- Having the opposite buff reduces your cast time by half.
- You're able to get half-casting time on the next two attacks.
- Mana ticks occur every 3s.
- GCD is 2.5s.
- Foe's Requiem increases spell damage by around +15%.

I'm also ignoring startup time so that we can focus on the average PPS of a rotation.

Quick Potency Table (debuffed/normal/buffed):
F1/B1: 105 | 150 | 270
F2/B2: 70 | 100 | 180
F3/B3: 154 | 220 | 396
Flare: 182 | 260 | 468

Mage's Ballad Rotation

(from AF3) Blizzard 3 > Fire 3 > Flare > wait for MP

Time: 9 seconds
B3 (fast) casts in 3.5/2 = 1.75s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
F3 (fast) casts in 3.5/2 = 1.75s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
Flare (fast) casts in 4.0/2 = 2.0s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.

This is a total of 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 = 7.5s. However, because you have to wait for MP, this takes exactly 9s.

Damage:
B3 (AF3) does 154 potency and is single-target.
F3 (UI3) does 154 potency and is single-target.
Flare (AF3) does 468 potency and is multi-target.

PPS = (468 x targets + 154 + 154) / 9

For 1 target, this does 86.2 PPS.
For 2 targets, this does 138.2 PPS.
For 3 targets, this does 190.2 PPS.
For 5 targets, this does 294.2 PPS.
For 7 targets, this does 398.2 PPS.
For 9 targets, this does 502.2 PPS.

Foe's Requiem Rotation

(from AF3) Blizzard 2 > Blizzard 2 > Fire 3 > Flare > Transpose > wait for MP

Time: 12 seconds
B2 (normal) casts in 2.0s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
F3 (fast) casts in 3.5/2 = 1.75s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
Flare (fast) casts in 4.0/2 = 2.0s, but takes 2.5s because of GCD.
Transpose is instant but takes around 0.5 because of animation.

This is a total of 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 0.5 = 10.5s. However, because you have to wait for MP, this takes exactly 12s.

Damage:
B2 (UI1) does 100 potency and is multi-target.
B2 (UI2) does 100 potency and is multi-target.
F3 (UI3) does 154 potency and is single-target.
Flare (AF3) does 468 potency and is multi-target.

PPS = ((100 + 100 + 468) x targets + 154) / 12

For 1 target, this does 68.5 PPS. Adding +15% gives 78.8 PPS.
For 2 targets, this does 124.2 PPS. Adding +15% gives 142.8 PPS.
For 3 targets, this does 179.8 PPS. Adding +15% gives 206.8 PPS.
For 5 targets, this does 291.2 PPS. Adding +15% gives 334.8 PPS.
For 7 targets, this does 402.5 PPS. Adding +15% gives 462.9 PPS.
For 9 targets, this does 513.8 PPS. Adding +15% gives 590.9 PPS.

[Cha0zb0rn]

well it might be obvious that b2 -> b2->F3 deals more Aoe dmg then a pure b3-> f3 combo but its kinda extremely impractical. the whole blizzard thing is the followup to a flare when ur oom to regain mana and set up a second or third flare, by this time u are prolly pretty high on the enmityscale and the last place u want to be is definatly right between all ur opponents 0.o the only thing that will keep you from dying in such a case will be quelling strikes and that one will be on cd after a use for at least 1-2 trashpacks and if ur really unlucky wont keep at least a few opponents from turning to you at least for 1 attack, especially when ur continuing to built up enmity by spamming b2 0.o

my fav combo is and ever will be f3->3*f2->QS->RS->f2->QC->flare->convert->f2->b3->f3->flare(hi ether->b3->f3->flare (if u don't care about using pots for random trash )->transpose->b1->f3->4*f2->b3->f3->(4*f2(depending on opponents remaining health))->flare. 2 no aggro RS flares in rapid succession, there definatlly isn't anything faster to burn a big group of opponents to ashes in no time in this game.

[O-Deka-K]

my fav combo is and ever will be f3->3*f2->QS->RS->f2->QC->flare->convert->f2->b3->f3->flare(hi ether->b3->f3->flare (if u don't care about using pots for random trash )->transpose->b1->f3->4*f2->b3->f3->(4*f2(depending on opponents remaining health))->flare.

You're arguing a completely different point. I was only comparing the two flat rotations based on the two Bard song effects. Of course when you pop all of your CDs and pots, it's going to increase damage output. That's exactly what you should do in a real situation when they're up. But what do you do when they're down? In your case, your flat rotation starts after the Transpose (and I'm guessing that the B1 should be B3).

I use the B2 combo in WP SR all the time. The only thing you have to do is watch out for AoEs, which isn't tough. You can always side step after the B2-B2 or after Flare because you have a small time buffer.

[Peptaru]

What is that, about 30 or more GCD's worth of stuff you're listing? Two things, first: the fact that it takes that many spells to kill any group of enemies shows that the rotation is weak. Second: the B2's provide nice timing, but I can double flare or F3 -> flare after a B3 just the same. It is just about maximizing damage. There are very few mobs that it is dangerous to stand in the middle of.

If your tank can't keep hate off of you when quelling strikes is down, first, yell at the them. Then ask them to use cover. It is all fairly moot if you kill the packs quickly enough.

[Cha0zb0rn]

it depends on the WHM how long it takes for the opponents to drop dead, usually the last trashpack in wp (whole trash from 2nd to 3rd boss) is dead during the 2nd flare.

and sorry but my RS flares usually deal 2,1k dmg, thats quite a lot even for a ilvl90 pally spamming flash 24/7. and i'm never would trade one of my rs flares or even a rs af3 f2 for a crappy b2.....

edit: btw. I usually don't need manasong during my combo for about 3 flares, so foes song could be up for me as well, negating all of the above described advantages.
its simple logic: flare is the highest hitting AoE spell in the game, that in mind the best possible dmg output against groups of mobs lies within spamming multiple flaes in rapid succession under the influence of all the dmg buffs available for as much flares as possible.

that being said u gotta calculate the possible number of speedflares u can achieve in one interval of RS and fill the gaps with the second strongest blm aoe cast: f2. and ofc keep af 3 up before using flare.

jugling with that information u got ur prioritys straight up:

casting RS af3 flare > keeping af3 up for a flare > speed up flare > buff up flare > fill gaps with rs f2 >>>> fill in gaps with b2 maybe.

the b2 combo helps keeping up sustained AoE dmg without the need of external manasources but it definatly isn'T the most efficient way to deal max amounts of dmg in a minimum of time! that being said u can even skip the f2 after ur convert but u wont find a way to fill in this gap with anything else since u definatly wont get a 3rd af3 flare into a single RS but u still can drop it if u believe ur opponents will drop dead after the 2nd flare.

the only time the b2 combo could be more efficient is the one trashpack where convert is on cd (in our group this usually is the trashpack right before the 2nd boss in wp) since you can only get a double flare there if u use a hi-ether and will definatly need to rely on transpose after that if ur bard isn't playing manasong but even there it highly depends on pala cds and whm dmg output if u even need a 3rd flare.