The Black Mage Rotations

[thegodthatwas]

Why wouldn't you use Firestarter and Thundercloud prods as soon as they show up?

And why would you use Thunder II instead of III? When you open with B3 it's free...?

[Synovius]

Why wouldn't you use Firestarter and Thundercloud prods as soon as they show up?

And why would you use Thunder II instead of III? When you open with B3 it's free...?

Firestarter doesn't proc until your Fire I has finished traveling to the target meaning that, to use Firestarter as soon as it's up, you'd have to wait after casting Fire I to see if you're going to get a proc and then use it. This results in a very clunky rotation and also a net loss overall in DPS.

As for Thundercloud procs, you are basically using them as soon as they come up. You're simply using them as soon as you are done with whatever cast you are in the middle of or immediately if you literally just finished a cast. The only caveat is that Firestarter procs take priority over Thundercloud procs if both happen to be up at the same time.

Using Thunder II over Thunder III comes down to timing. Thunder II has a shorter duration that fits nicely with one loop through the rotation such that when you cast Blizzard III to start off a new loop through the rotation Thunder II should have just or will soon fall off of your target (this is obviously dependent on RNG with Firestarter procs throughout the rotation). More importantly, Thunder II's 0.5s less cast time over Thunder III allows you to follow your Blizzard III with Thunder II and have enough time to cast the subsequent Fire III for free as you'll get a tick of mana exactly at that moment from Umbral Ice III. In fact, I'd call this the primary reason to use Thunder II over III. Do note, however, you should always use Thunder III with Thundercloud procs as it's instant and more damage.

[dragonflyseksparade]

The only caveat is that Firestarter procs take priority over Thundercloud procs if both happen to be up at the same time.

Why would you do this? If you use thundercloud first you could potentially get another thundercloud immediately. Whereas you will not get another Firestarter proc until you go back to Fire I spam.

[Synovius]

Why would you do this? If you use thundercloud first you could potentially get another thundercloud immediately. Whereas you will not get another Firestarter proc until you go back to Fire I spam.

This does make a lot of sense and, honestly, I hadn't thought about it this way so kudos on bringing up a great point! My concern would be that Firestarter does more damage and if Thunder isn't about to fall off your target, then that means you'll get one more tick of Thunder (and thus the chance for a Thundercloud proc) anyway some time between casting Firestarter and up until you're ready to cast Thundercloud. I'm not 100% certain but I think, mathematically, it may be a wash in that sense. If somebody wants to churn some numbers, I'd love to see where the math leads on this.

Thanks, Dragonfly!

[dragonflyseksparade]

My concern would be that Firestarter does more damage and if Thunder isn't about to fall off your target, then that means you'll get one more tick of Thunder (and thus the chance for a Thundercloud proc) anyway some time between casting Firestarter and up until you're ready to cast Thundercloud. I'm not 100% certain but I think, mathematically, it may be a wash in that sense.

It doesn't matter which proc does more damage. The two scenarios are as follows:

Thunder III -> Fire III
or
Fire III -> Thunder III

In both cases you've done the same amount of damage over the course of two GCDs. But the first of those two scenarios give you a chance at another Thundercloud proc immediately. The second of the two could result in a missed thundercloud if it were to proc again as you cast Fire III.

It doesn't really matter how much time is left on your current thunder because thunder will never fall off of a single target in a normal rotation unless you get some amazing luck and had Firestarter proc on every single Fire I during the rotation.

[YuriRamona]

Why would you do this? If you use thundercloud first you could potentially get another thundercloud immediately. Whereas you will not get another Firestarter proc until you go back to Fire I spam.

Thundercloud's effective potency is 17 potency per tick. Every tick of Thunder (and you are not already under its effect), you are adding 17 potency to your rotation.*

Scenario 1: Thunder has three ticks remaining and Thundercloud is used, refreshing duration for 6 ticks.
Total Thunder duration: 6 ticks.
Total Thunder duration with Thundercloud proc down: 6 ticks.

Scenario 2: Thunder has three ticks remaining and Thundercloud is saved until Thunder expires.
Total Thunder duration: 9 ticks.
Total Thunder duration with Thundercloud proc down: 6 ticks.

Immediately casting Thundercloud decreases the effectiveness of the initial Thunder cast. The only reason I can see for immediately using up this proc is if your rotation would be interrupted negatively by saving it until Thunder expires.

*5% of 340 is 17. There's a 5% chance that every tick is a bonus 340 potency and full 18s duration Thunder.

[Allyrion]

Snip

I would agree with that if Thunder didn't always seem to proc one right after the other. I've had procs for another one while in the process instantly casting a Thunder III proc.
The odds of that should be astronomical, but it happens quite a bit.
Or I should say, I don't get thundercloud procs much but when I do it almost always chains.

The people earlier were saying they had the same experience, so I'm not going to trust the probability in this case.

[dragonflyseksparade]

nonsense about dot ticks.

Doesn't matter. As I mentioned, Thunder is always on the target in a normal ST rotation. You're not adding any 'ticks' of the dot, you're using Thundercloud to get the proc hit. It has nothing to do with the Thunder dot and everything to do with using a proc that does more damage than your Fire I spam.

[Dips]

that rotation is crap, use:
Blizzard III -> Fire III -> Flare -> Transpose then repeat.

This rotation will give you fast cast buff on the Flare during to Blizzard III and dmg buff through Fire III. (Flare casts in 2seconds)

Double Flare with Cooldowns:
Raging Strikes -> Blizzard III -> Fire III -> Flare -> Convert (or elixir) -> Swiftcast -> Flare -> Tranpose.
(you want to use Raging Strikes so quickly because you have no time to use it after Blizzard III or Fire III without losing the right buff order)

With both rotations you want to spam the keys as quick as possible.
Greetz Dips

[Shadowzanon]

Sorry Dips, i thought myself doing the rotation you mention to be better but nope wrong. I tried the fire 3, flare, transpose , ice 2 ice 2, repeat combo and its by far superior. Ill explain.
One blizzard 3 hits 1 target, if i crit it may do prob about 600 dmg tops. In turn 4 the 1st and 4th group have 6 mobs or more, wp speed runs have atleast 10 mobs grouped up or more. thus this is where ice 2 shines, because 1 it hits em all thus waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more dmg than a single target ice3, for wp it binds targets giving the tank and healer breathing room even if its a second or 2. Due to the extra dmg to all mobs and with flare its better. Even more so when topped with foes.

But wait there is more. Ice 2 you do not need to target anything. If your target happens to die while trying to cast ice 3 guess what you need to hardcast again and thats over 3 seconds each time, thats not including the time you need to wait for a mana tic from transpose to even cast ice 3 which affects both rotations as in why i didnt include it. Because ice 2 can be used without a target, if your primary target goes down you automaticly have another target to keep going.

We have tried bard with mana song up at all times during mobs in wp to do fire 3, flare, then ice 3 since each mana song tic gives back enough mana to skip transpose. It great but Fire3, flare, convert, ice 2 , ice 2 outpreforms it with foes up , archer doing 100% dmg, me doing 110% dmg and killing groups quicker than me doing 100% dmg and bard doing 80%. Becuase of ice 2 our whm can sneak in a holy or 2 better than before thus mob groups just die much faster.