Can we add some complexity to combat? Skill chains and magic bursts ??

[busta]

This comment right here makes me feel like you deem "casuals" as an inferior class of person, and that you would rather they stay out of video games.

Comments like above only serve to reinforce the stereotype that gamers have zero compassion or sensitivity, and that their soul is filled with naught but spite for humanity.

At least, that's how it seems to me.

I was actually a casual FFXI player. But I wasn't a cry baby. I enjoyed the fact that everything was so difficult and required a great deal of skill and effort. I didn't whine on forums and talk crap everywhere else when I couldn't get my job to max level in a month or when I couldn't get certain quests done because I didn't have the time to dedicate. FFXI was one of the ONLY games that didn't exclusively cater to casuals.

Nothing is wrong with casuals. But there is something wrong with building every single MMO out there from the ground up specifically for casuals. Casual players aren't the only players. Some people prefer a game where it feels like an alternate world rather than a single player Diablo-style RPG that can be played solo or with friends. Some people enjoy the idea of being high level being an amazing accomplishment rather than something everyone has. Some people enjoy feeling like they have jumped into a second life. The only non-casual focused MMO still out there is Eve Online.

[meldir]

I've never seen an MMO this easy and idiot-proof.
-You can't mess up your character spec simply because you can't spec, you end up with the same traits and cross class skills as everyone.
-Skills and spells require little to no strategy in their usage, you just keep rotating the same line of skills over and over again regardless of what enemy you're facing.
-Combat, in general, is too easy. You can make it to level 50 without dying in this game. The only fights that are "hard" are ones that you haven't met the gear requirement for.

Really? i found this games instances harder then any game i have played while still keeping it fun well i guess that just me..

The secret world is a game that lets you pick all your skill i mean you can learn them all and the funny thing is most people end up with the same build go figure same for most other games too

[Flionheart]

SC's and MB's weren't complex. They were a simple count method. It's not like you used different ones, because Ice was so OP in XI.

[Dhex]

Honestly? Just trying to get a few intelligent responses on the topic to see what people think. The majority of responses are over simplifications.

Okay well...


It doesn't work with the structure of combat. A majority of actions on your hotbar are stuck with a dedicated GCD from 2.5s~2.3s with variance between classes. Not all classes function the same. Tanks both have a three step enmity chain they need to maintain to keep enmity building at a dedicated rate to out pace the generation of DPS/Healers. Skill Chains - for this system to be inherently interesting, and not subject to the self-skill chaining abuse as in Square's previous MMO title (FFXI), a Skill Chain would need to require an attack by each role to activate. Imbalance in mechanics of Skill Chains would drive the community towards a predisposition to any class able to self-chain.

Skill Chains themselves would require that a player react within a split second to a visual cue graphically; either (animation) or (text log). The pace of combat would make this impractical in the extreme - combat simply moves to quickly. People would need to artificially delay their actions so other players could interpret and react to them accurately - which just doesn't work. In the time it takes to enter a message into the log to forewarn your party that you're beginning a chain the situation in the fight could change drastically - area of effect, incoming damage spike, or simply a positional change would render your message moot. Not everyone has access to a VoIP - not everyone you play with is in your FC/LS.

• Paladin: Fast Blade -> Savage Blade -> Rage of Halone if I interrupt this chain to complete a "Skill Chain" which another player it interrupts the core rotation of the class. Enmity does not decay - how is Skill Chain damage calculated and who is the enmity attributed to? If I delayed my basic rotation the DPS also had to interrupt their rotations to perform an opener. In fights requiring dedicated Stuns they become unable to Skill Chain effectively.

• Warrior: See Paladin. Then tack on needing a 2nd distinct bi/tri rotation to their basic cycle to maintain Maim/Storm's Eye buff/debuff while building, maintaining, and utilizing Wrath stack requirements. Warrior would be less viable and more difficult to group with because of their ineffective rotations paired with a system that demands they delay or even cancel a combination to complete a chain - this once again directly goes against party play and structure in A Realm Reborn.

• Monk: Relies on maintaining a rotation and utilizing this rotation to maintain stacking buffs to output damage - abilities only become available when moving through forms and are gated by prerequisites unless their Perfect Balance ability is used - which is primarily for quickly recovering their stacked buff. It is not unfeasible that a class such as Monk could initiate or complete a Skill Chain under perfect circumstances - but it is highly unlikely and the class would suffer and likely become shunned as less effective.

• Bard: Could easily Skill Chain - the way Bard functions it would be the best choice, if not the exclusive choice, for a system that involved a group chaining skills together.

• White Mage: Did White Mage ever truly get to participate with any regularity in Skill Chains before? Please give me a structure where all roles are somehow incorporated.

• Scholar: See White Mage.

• Black Mage: Relies on building stacks of Fire, and recovering with stacks of Ice. Black Mage using Magic Burst to deal extra aspect damage without participating actively in the chain build means they are granted a DPS boost simply by existing in the party and continuing to do their basic rotations.

• Summoner: Has no method of outputting spike damage making their Burst utility practically null. Involving a pet in a Skill Chain would be horrendous due the imprecise nature of pet control in FFXIV ARR.

• Dragoon: Simplistic - Dragoon is the most traditional class and would be second only to Bard in such a system with it's freedom to position and utilize any particular skill on demand while only slightly disrupting their general GCD rotation.

In short - the pace of combat and the nature of Job mechanics would come into direct conflict with the idea of Skill Chains. Magic Burst would overwhelmingly favor Black Mage and lead to certain classes being stacked for an exponential effect. A system that requires players to interact in this manner would work in a game of significantly lower pace (FFXI) but is not possible in a modern MMO where the entire focus is on the individual's performance, positional awareness, and cool-down management to fulfill their role.

[meldir]

But I wasn't a cry baby. I enjoyed the fact that everything was so difficult and required a great deal of skill and effort. I didn't whine on forums and talk crap everywhere else when I couldn't get my job to max level in a month or when I couldn't get certain quests done because I didn't have the time to dedicate. FFXI was one of the ONLY games that didn't exclusively cater to casuals.

Some people enjoy the idea of being high level being an amazing accomplishment rather than something everyone has. Some people enjoy feeling like they have jumped into a second life. The only non-casual focused MMO still out there is Eve Online.

and the eve community is know because it such a nice community.

tbh when i read you post i feel you have no compassion for anyone bar yourself and i feel the contempt you have for casual's. It scares me

[busta]

and the eve community is know because it such a nice community.

tbh when i read you post i feel you have no compassion for anyone bar yourself and i feel the contempt you have for casual's. It scares me

That's complete nonsense. Quit making completely false accusations. Strawmen tactics aren't real arguments. They are terrible logical fallacies.

I specifically said that there's nothing wrong with casual players and that I am a casual player. Is your reading comprehension level really that low?

My argument is that the vast majority of modern MMO developers completely ignore anyone who isn't a casual and anyone who wants a game that isn't another clone of a Blizzard game. There's a MASSIVE market out there that enjoyed old school FFXI and other games that felt like alternate realities rather than just single player super easy experiences that occasionally can involve some other people.

Edit: And actually, yeah. Eve IS known for having a GREAT community. That's because you need to play with other players to get anywhere in that game so the community is encouraged to be good. That's unlike most modern MMOs where the majority of the game can be solo'd with ease. No community develops because no one needs anyone else to do anything. In FFXIV it's even worse thanks to the DF.

[busta]

It would be kind of like if every developer stopped making 360 and PS3 games and just made Wii party games. That's how us classic MMO lovers feel right now. There's nothing wrong with casual games but if that's all that's out there, a huge chunk of people are going to feel alienated.

[Feln]

Except when you fought things that weren't weak to ice. You know, like dem skeletons, ghosts, ice elementals, gigas, bombs... Really, anything that wasn't ice averse or water/wind element, had a skillchain that worked better on them.

I remember fragmentation tearing it up in the mid-level camps, especially when your closer didn't have access to a distortion skill.

Fusion was the second choice, since there were almost as many mobs weak to fire as there were ice.

Gravitation was sadly underplayed, if you ask me, but I did notice no other level 2 did as much damage to coeurls/rabbits/wyverns/hippogryphs.

Chanting ICE OP everytime someone brings up the words SKILLCHAIN and VARIATION in the same sentence doesn't mean that skillchain damage worked like Spell-Tier damage worked. The higher level spell got the higher damage. Skillchains did not follow that calculation, and anyone who thinks they did must not have used very many skillchains(Or at least use them correctly). That, or they're just idiots.

[Gaddes]

Considering the continual lag issues people have with the game, I'd think having time-sensitive things like Skillchains/Magic Bursts in there would make it a massive headache.

[Kitfox]

While the base battle system might be simple, boss mechanics make the game quite complex at endgame. At least that's my experience in Coil. I'm enjoying it as it is either way.