Regarding Endgame DF and Tank Design

[Gapik]

I easily pull over 300 DPS on my warrior... maybe your warriors are doing it wrong?

Well dont keep it to yourself!

I and many other WAR no doubt would benefit from your wisdom...Instead of grps shouting PLD only we could bask in the joy of ppl shouting WAR only BRD/MNK/BLK need not apply!

[Gamemako]

Well dont keep it to yourself!

I and many other WAR no doubt would benefit from your wisdom...Instead of grps shouting PLD only we could bask in the joy of ppl shouting WAR only BRD/MNK/BLK need not apply!

He's probably claiming that for peak DPS using Unchained/Berserk/Release cycle. That's a feasible peak DPS number with a relic+1 and 430 strength or so.

[Rochetm]

The only way any of this would work is if they made Sword Oath and whatever War got reduce/remove the bonus enimity.

[Yagrush]

So many comments are repeating things that I've said in the OP, and assuming things that I explicitely said I wasn't in the OP. Guess I shouldn't bother to explain myself in the OPs anymore. No, I don't want them to be a full-fledged dps, yes, Roch, that's one of the ways I said they would be addressed. And yeah, 4 tanks clearing it that are incredibly overgeared/geared specifically for dps doesn't really solve the problem, since the idea is to avoid this issue now AND in the future, with harder content.

[Gapik]

He's probably claiming that for peak DPS using Unchained/Berserk/Release cycle. That's a feasible peak DPS number with a relic+1 and 430 strength or so.

Sounds about right but this is the exception and not the norm!

I will gather 2 sets of gear for DPS purposes.

I will change my stat point repeatedley from vit/str and str/vit tho each costs 10.000 seals (hate fate).

but in the long run im still a 2nd tier DPS...Who is also gimped one way or the other.

If it hits the fan and im in dps mode im unlikely to recover it as a 2nd tank.....in tank mode I cant contribute as a dps.

no other class makes this choice.

I would much rather just be the tank I should be! and leave my DPS to my DPS jobs.

[Yagrush]

Godsdammit. Say it with me now: WAR is not a DPS.

You see, PLD needs Sword Oath to be able to match WAR non-Defiance DPS. This is the reason for the existence of Sword Oath in the first place. Second, you've overestimated the difference between tank and DPS damage output -- it's 20-25%, not 70%. Compare WAR to DRG, and know that both have PGL and MRD abilities. The difference between the two is exactly 32 strength, then potency and ability considerations. End result is that DRG gets ~7-9% more damage from STR differences and another 10% or so out of greater potency on attacks, then the bonus off-GCD abilities. Additionally, WAR is already getting a buff to address some of the endgame struggles.

Don't take my posts out of context. I'm specifically saying that encounters that the second tank IS NOT NEEDED, in the grand scheme of things, is what could've been a better dps, and among hardcore players would rather be efficient and take a 5th dps instead, which they are still doing.

Also, I don't have the math to back it up, but I really doubt Wars only do 7-9% less dps than a dps geared DRG who knows what he is doing, while you are geared for tanking. Gearing for dps as a tank, imo, defeats the purpose of having the DF allow 2 tanks into the queue.

[Gamemako]

No, I don't want them to be a full-fledged dps

Yes, you do. You're telling everyone that WAR can't ever tank, it needs a DPS stance to boost DPS, and that no party will take a tank as sub-par DPS, all in the same breath. You may prance around saying "but I didn't claim they needed to be like a DPS", but you created a scenario where the only possible suggestion is exactly what you disclaimed.

You're also assuming an overgear where none exists, once again. You're talking about a thread in which there are a bunch of WAR players who don't have better than Garuda weapons because they haven't successfully done Titan yet.

Don't take my posts out of context. I'm specifically saying that encounters that the second tank IS NOT NEEDED, in the grand scheme of things, is what could've been a better dps, and among hardcore players would rather be efficient and take a 5th dps instead, which they are still doing.

They're taking 6 DPS, actually, when a second healer isn't needed. When you make the assumption that everything has gone swimmingly, then you're always going to lose out to another DPS. You are never going to get people voluntarily taking another tank or healer when they can avoid it. Hell, people won't even take sub-par DPS characters.

[Yagrush]

Yes, you do. You're telling everyone that WAR can't ever tank, it needs a DPS stance to boost DPS, and that no party will take a tank as sub-par DPS, all in the same breath. You may prance around saying "but I didn't claim they needed to be like a DPS", but you created a scenario where the only possible suggestion is exactly what you disclaimed.

You're also assuming an overgear where none exists, once again. You're talking about a thread in which there are a bunch of WAR players who don't have better than Garuda weapons because they haven't successfully done Titan yet

Wow. When did I every say "WAR can't ever tank"? Are you serious? Did you EVEN read my OP fully? You're putting words into my mouth that are out of context. The only context where I think a DPS boost is needed is when a DF forces on you a 2 tank queue and there's a dps race that dictates whether or not you will achieve victory in an encounter (I.e. Titan). But you would know this already if you actually read the OP.

Also, I'm assuming that there's overgear when none exist? Are you saying that Relic + 1, ilvl90 gear isn't being overgeared for Titan HM? Really? And, also, that's the one situation where it really isn't valid to this discussion, since this issue assumes you are progressing and utilizing the expected gear level for content.

Also, having the Garuda weapon is the expected ilvl weapon you'll be using for Titan HM, anything above is being overgeared, by definition, so I don't see where you are going with that.

By the way, you are completely missing the point of the issue, while you are busy putting words in my mouth.

[Zoeila]

why is there so much misinformation about sword oath? sword oath adds an additional auto attack with 50 potency your normal auto attack has a potency of 75. also i believe it gives enmity equal to double the damage you would of dealt.

[niwaar]

While I admit that the OP has a point when it comes to a fight where the abilities of an off tank do not contribute to the success or failure on a fight, I disagree with his contention that a group doing a fight like Ifrit is diminished by having a second tank in the group. This game is not WoW where everyone is built equal. Something I love about it. The game devs have seen fit to give Paladins the best and most consistent ability to interrupt things. Whether it is Eruption on Ifrit, A Voice on Chimera or High Voltage on ADS, they are the single best interrupter in the game. Through luck, proper play and creative use of in game mechanics you can eliminate the need for more than one interrupter while fighting Ifrit and Chimera leaving you without the need for a second tank. The second tank on a fight like Hydra is there as only a buffer.


These mechanics have been used many times of the years as ways to include a second (or third, or more) tanks in a raid/dungeon encounter. Stop complaining.

Yes, it would be great to see the ability to change jobs in a duty so we can have our offtank on a single tank encounter swap to a DD job. Hell it would be nice to not see them as a nerfed DD in a fight like Titan. I do not think that this is the issue. We need more fights that require multiple group makeups and to have the system be flexible. The true beauty of the armory system is that everyone can be everything. We have seen that beauty be spoiled by the inability to change during the course of a duty and even more so by the inability to properly gear out multiple jobs due to the confines of an archaic "point" system that works in other games only because those games encourage play on alternate characters and not alternate jobs on the same character.