Regarding Endgame DF and Tank Design

[Rochetm]

The only way any of this would work is if they made Sword Oath and whatever War got reduce/remove the bonus enimity.

[Yagrush]

So many comments are repeating things that I've said in the OP, and assuming things that I explicitely said I wasn't in the OP. Guess I shouldn't bother to explain myself in the OPs anymore. No, I don't want them to be a full-fledged dps, yes, Roch, that's one of the ways I said they would be addressed. And yeah, 4 tanks clearing it that are incredibly overgeared/geared specifically for dps doesn't really solve the problem, since the idea is to avoid this issue now AND in the future, with harder content.

[Zoeila]

why is there so much misinformation about sword oath? sword oath adds an additional auto attack with 50 potency your normal auto attack has a potency of 75. also i believe it gives enmity equal to double the damage you would of dealt.

[niwaar]

While I admit that the OP has a point when it comes to a fight where the abilities of an off tank do not contribute to the success or failure on a fight, I disagree with his contention that a group doing a fight like Ifrit is diminished by having a second tank in the group. This game is not WoW where everyone is built equal. Something I love about it. The game devs have seen fit to give Paladins the best and most consistent ability to interrupt things. Whether it is Eruption on Ifrit, A Voice on Chimera or High Voltage on ADS, they are the single best interrupter in the game. Through luck, proper play and creative use of in game mechanics you can eliminate the need for more than one interrupter while fighting Ifrit and Chimera leaving you without the need for a second tank. The second tank on a fight like Hydra is there as only a buffer.


These mechanics have been used many times of the years as ways to include a second (or third, or more) tanks in a raid/dungeon encounter. Stop complaining.

Yes, it would be great to see the ability to change jobs in a duty so we can have our offtank on a single tank encounter swap to a DD job. Hell it would be nice to not see them as a nerfed DD in a fight like Titan. I do not think that this is the issue. We need more fights that require multiple group makeups and to have the system be flexible. The true beauty of the armory system is that everyone can be everything. We have seen that beauty be spoiled by the inability to change during the course of a duty and even more so by the inability to properly gear out multiple jobs due to the confines of an archaic "point" system that works in other games only because those games encourage play on alternate characters and not alternate jobs on the same character.

[Yagrush]

While I admit that the OP has a point when it comes to a fight where the abilities of an off tank do not contribute to the success or failure on a fight, I disagree with his contention that a group doing a fight like Ifrit is diminished by having a second tank in the group. This game is not WoW where everyone is built equal. Something I love about it. The game devs have seen fit to give Paladins the best and most consistent ability to interrupt things. Whether it is Eruption on Ifrit, A Voice on Chimera or High Voltage on ADS, they are the single best interrupter in the game. Through luck, proper play and creative use of in game mechanics you can eliminate the need for more than one interrupter while fighting Ifrit and Chimera leaving you without the need for a second tank. The second tank on a fight like Hydra is there as only a buffer.


These mechanics have been used many times of the years as ways to include a second (or third, or more) tanks in a raid/dungeon encounter. Stop complaining.

Yes, it would be great to see the ability to change jobs in a duty so we can have our offtank on a single tank encounter swap to a DD job. Hell it would be nice to not see them as a nerfed DD in a fight like Titan. I do not think that this is the issue. We need more fights that require multiple group makeups and to have the system be flexible. The true beauty of the armory system is that everyone can be everything. We have seen that beauty be spoiled by the inability to change during the course of a duty and even more so by the inability to properly gear out multiple jobs due to the confines of an archaic "point" system that works in other games only because those games encourage play on alternate characters and not alternate jobs on the same character.

Glad to see a response like this ^^ And I agree, Ifrit is a much lesser example, probably not really a valid one at that, since Paladin is of great use even if it isn't tanking.

Keep in mind this is only one of many solutions. I hope we can atleast agree on this: We need SE to ensure the justification of the x amount of tanks that a DF requires for any future encounters, not only will the OT feel useless, but we will see more "1-tank titan run onry" situations on other content if the OT spot isn't justified. I understand that some usage will be much more pronounced and obvious than others, but it's imperative that SE keeps being consistent on their design.

Thanks for the response

[Gapik]

Yes how fun for PLD to be stunbots.

get rid of stun on both classes in my oppinion....see how fun it is for the dps then when they are forced to stun, stun, stun, stun and nothing else

[yukikaze_yanagi]

Yes, it would be great to see the ability to change jobs in a duty so we can have our offtank on a single tank encounter swap to a DD job. Hell it would be nice to not see them as a nerfed DD in a fight like Titan. I do not think that this is the issue. We need more fights that require multiple group makeups and to have the system be flexible. The true beauty of the armory system is that everyone can be everything. We have seen that beauty be spoiled by the inability to change during the course of a duty and even more so by the inability to properly gear out multiple jobs due to the confines of an archaic "point" system that works in other games only because those games encourage play on alternate characters and not alternate jobs on the same character.

The ability of do this spoiled 1.0 dungeons, where it was "have this jobs or gtfo". No thanks, i don't wanna play again DJ jobs again. I like better like this

[ChaozK]

While i agree with the OP that the second tank can be rather pointless in some fights and would welcome a dmg buff on offtanks, i do think that this wouldnt solve the issue. Even if the offtanks dmg would just be 3% lower than a dps class...people would still bring a 5th dps class because it has 3% more dps, lets be real here.

Instead the offtank should bring something to the group that only he can do. Imo the offtank should make tanking more easy for the main tank. Say he brings a ton of debuffs to mitigate dmg on the MT.

[Ryios]

I'm already less of a burden on my warrior. We sell titan all the time and I fill a DPS spot on my war and crank out as high as 300 dps on a good run or 200+ on an average run.

The proper way to fix this problem is to make every 8 man have two tank mechanics. Gaurda HM is already that way. Titan HM they could make it so mountain buster applies a debuff so that if you take a 2nd mountain buster it 1 shots your azz unless a tank taunts off you and eats the next MB while your debuff expires.

[Eigi]

I'm already less of a burden on my warrior. We sell titan all the time and I fill a DPS spot on my war and crank out as high as 300 dps on a good run or 200+ on an average run.

The proper way to fix this problem is to make every 8 man have two tank mechanics. Gaurda HM is already that way. Titan HM they could make it so mountain buster applies a debuff so that if you take a 2nd mountain buster it 1 shots your azz unless a tank taunts off you and eats the next MB while your debuff expires.

Eh you can solo tank Garuda and have one of the melee dps or one of the healer tank adds its hard I know but its doable.