Summoner - The whining needs to stop.

[PiedPiper]

I suppose if we all vastly outlevel the content and I'm only there to herd stuff up and tank the bosses, then it doesn't really matter as much... but for harder content I'd rather keep hate and kill stuff more slowly than risk losing hate due to running out of MP mid-fight.

If I've a Bard, or the AoE DPS aren't going balls-to-the-wall (Fester/Ruin/etc - it happens a lot! >.<) so that my MP doesn't bottom out trying to keep hate and I can rotate in a few Riot Blades and/or RoH, I'm generally fine.

Was going a bit over the top because of how vitrolic Seriat had become toward Keeve. That said, if you follow my advice you'll find its not as hard as it seems at first.

You probably don't need to regenerate mp. If you've used every flash you can, and woven in ROH while doing so, you have ALOT of enmity already on the table.

In many ways, there is no "harder content." There is no current content that a i80 relic pld in full i70 can't manage both the aoe and single target threat for. In the case of summoner--which is what this thread isa bout--their passive AOE damage via bane is slight enough that you should have no problem holding over them. Its only marginally more hate than your healer will be generating anyway (either you are under geared and your are taking a lot of damage, at which piont you need lots of aoe threat to hold, OR you are over geared, not taking much damage but thus dealing far more enmity and stuff dieing faster).

There is no dungeon in which a summoner shoudl be asked to NOT use bane. That is what ths thread is ultiamtely about. MAYYYYYBE if you are a like, a ifrit's blade baby-pally against a full darklight/vanya relic +1 with some allagan summoner. But even then, that's what cover is for.

As a paladin, its your job to never, ever, for any reason, ever, under any circumstance, need to ask a dps to slow down. You can tactically call for quelling, but they should still be able to dps full power. If they are able to put the damage up, you should be able to keep up. If you are consistently loosing out, step up. The only way to get better is to challenge yourself, and I promise you could be better. Everyone, including me, could be.

[Seriat]

I fail to see how I became "vitrolic" with Keeve as you put it. I simply stated that by speaking a PoV that they couldn't possibly have experienced makes their opinion just that, an opinion not based on actual experience. The point I tried but failed to make, that Maelwys made so eloquently was that SMN and a ST DPS can cause hate issues due to the different style of fighting.

Hate is a team effort, tanks can only do so much. If all your concerned about is your parse position, be prepared to eat some dirt.

[Kevee]

The point I tried but failed to make, that Maelwys made so eloquently was that SMN and a ST DPS can cause hate issues due to the different style of fighting.

Hate is a team effort, tanks can only do so much. If all your concerned about is your parse position, be prepared to eat some dirt.

There is no "ST DPS" when doing trash.

Everyone should be AoEing. I said that before, with a MNK example. Rockbreaker is the third hit that requires Coeurl form. It's their only real AoE. So you need to do 1-2-3(Rockbreaker), tab, 1-2-3, tab, 1-2-3, etc. Flash has no problem with this. If you don't mind occasionally pulling a single target, the MNK can stay on one target and 1-2-3. It won't be optimal ST DPS, and still AoEs. You're acting as if it's a travesty if a DPS pulls one mob off sometimes.

If you're running out of MP, or TP, pull more than one pack at once.


I was able to handle 2-3 packs at a time in AK with a warrior tank when I finally unlocked Scholar. I was in AF gear, with garuda book, and he was in warrior AF with the level 50 GC weapon.


Hate IS a team effort, but I shouldn't have any problem with hate if the tank knows what they're doing. I'm not there to coddle you. You don't get any better by not being able to hold AoE aggro, and then me switching to ST. That doesn't fix anything, it doesn't benefit either of us. It's a band-aid to a problem. LEARN. I've had PLDs with a DARKLIGHT weapon hold aggro fine.

[Maelwys]

As a paladin, its your job to never, ever, for any reason, ever, under any circumstance, need to ask a dps to slow down.

"Dammit Minmax, put DOWN the Axe! The Main Tank is down, the Off-Tank has DCed, the Healer's faceplanted and the Black Mage has wet their pants!!"

"CANT TALK BUSY DISMEMBERING!"

(More seriously, I usually appreciate a second or two at the very start of a pull to let me secure initial aggro, but I get the jist of your point!)

I actually DID ask a DPS class (Drg) to slow down a little bit two evenings ago in an AK run, because he had a +1 Relic and it was making the BRD jealous...

You're acting as if it's a travesty if a DPS pulls one mob off sometimes.

AAAAARRRRRRGHH!!!
PROVOKE! RoH! FLASH! ShieldBash! Your mother was a Hamster! GETBACKOVERHERE!

...
...
...sorry, OCD.

>.>

[Seriat]

Snip

You need to chill out. Just because YOU spam AoE doesn't mean EVERYONE spams AoE. Believe it or not, not everyone on all servers play the same as you. You want to spam AoE, go ahead I never said not too.

[Kevee]

You need to chill out. Just because YOU spam AoE doesn't mean EVERYONE spams AoE. Believe it or not, not everyone on all servers play the same as you. You want to spam AoE, go ahead I never said not too.

I ain't even mad.

Currently breeding 5 IV Fire/Thunder/Ice Fang Mawile's in Premier Balls.

I just post bluntly.

[Regis]

In coil turn 4 its an AoE DPS race so summoners will pull out all the stops and if the tanks lose aggro then they need to figure out how to keep it depending on the strategy being used. Might as well figure out how to do it early because it's coming (depending on the strategy that you use) either way.

Personally I do whatever the party wants to do on my SMN although AOE is definitely faster. Since summoners use damage over TIME then the more TIME that dots are up on each mob the more damage they will deal.

[PiedPiper]

I fail to see how I became "vitrolic" with Keeve as you put it. I simply stated that by speaking a PoV that they couldn't possibly have experienced makes their opinion just that, an opinion not based on actual experience. The point I tried but failed to make, that Maelwys made so eloquently was that SMN and a ST DPS can cause hate issues due to the different style of fighting.

Hate is a team effort, tanks can only do so much. If all your concerned about is your parse position, be prepared to eat some dirt.

Playing as a summoner gives her plenty of experience in how summoner dps affects hate.

AOE + Single target in no way unbalances hate in a fashion that a paladin cannot account for. I gave you specific descriptions of how this can be done, by alternating between flashing and advancing the ROH combo becasue flash does not interrupt teh combo.

You don't need time to seal hate, you don't need a dps to slow down, you don't need to be concerned about summoner's incidental aoe if you are already producing sufficient hate. Bio 1 & 2 + Miasma simply ins't that muchd amage per tick, even off a summoner as geared as kevee, that you can't easily keep up with flash. Also, its not like flash is a complete loss on a single target. Its just less than ROH, which is why you use both.

On hte pull: Flash -> cos -> Flash -> flash -> 2 steps Roh -> Flash -> 2 steps roh -> flash -> continue untill done. If you run out of mp, odds are you have enough of a lead that you can just start thorwing out ROH split combos. Also, remember you can use ROH out of combo for a still large amount of threat. (In fact, its the second most single target threat you can do in a single gcd, after ROH in combo).

The thing is, hate in this game is really tanks vs healers. Once you get to higher content like titan and coils, you'll notice its usually whms that are the hate chasers. Tanks have a huge per-gcd advantage over dps. Realistically, quelling stirkes is something only situationally useful--for example you need hate on two targets that are taking full single target damage, or you are doing speed runs and want to be able to regen mana during a fight. If you really try to step up to a higher level of hate production, you'll find that losing hate to a dps is nearly impossible.

Hate is a team effort, sure. But you are 90% of the team. Work on boradening your shoulders so there is plenty of space for your friends to climb aboard and get carried.

[Maelwys]

On hte pull: Flash -> cos -> Flash -> flash -> 2 steps Roh -> Flash -> 2 steps roh -> flash -> continue untill done. If you run out of mp, odds are you have enough of a lead that you can just start thorwing out ROH split combos. Also, remember you can use ROH out of combo for a still large amount of threat. (In fact, its the second most single target threat you can do in a single gcd, after ROH in combo).

Just for completenesses sake (I'm aware that I'm preaching to the choir here!) - technically a Paladin can get a little more out of that... Fight or Flight has no downsides and is a big boost to PLD DPS, and Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within are both off-cooldown weaponskills that add a lot of (non enmity boosted) threat. I usually have both FoF and SW (unless I need to silence something at regular intervals) macroed into each step of my RoH combo so that they always get used immediately on cooldown.

So for a first couple of hits after the pull I tend to immediately Fight or Flight, followed by Spirits Within on the most dangerous mob, Flash on the group, Circle of Scorn, Flash, Flash, then start switching targets to look at the levels on their threat bars. Three flashes is usually enough for me to be able to gauge what sort of hate the rest of group is pulling on the mobs and decide how many Flashes / Rage of Halone rotations I need to do to keep the mobs attention. If I have a spare GCD or two I'll start throwing in Shield Bashes on various mobs and possibly even a Stoneskin on myself to take some heat off the healer and let them DPS a little bit... (Scholars can DoT almost as well as a Summoner, and White Mage's Cleric Stance + Holy is pretty spectacular!)

The thing is, hate in this game is really tanks vs healers. Once you get to higher content like titan and coils, you'll notice its usually whms that are the hate chasers.

This is true. Tougher fights tend to be a healing race - moreso if the Healers are having to pick up after other players who fail to dodge AoEs (urgh Titan). Although it should be noted that nearly everyone has their own set of hate management skills - WHMs have Shroud, SCH have the healing split amongst them and the fairy, and DD have stuff like Elusive Jump and Quelling Strikes. As much as my ego would like to claim otherwise, hate management isn't solely the jurisdiction of the Tank in this game.

When I was running as a "Baby PLD with an Ifrits Blade" (not so long ago!) I could generally still keep hate on two mobs at a time even against Relic user DDs, but the Best-In-Slot Equipment and Relic+1 user DDs were another story. Even if they're paying complete attention and have their ability rotations down perfectly, you may have to cut your Tank a break from time to time if they're not quite as well geared as you.

I suppose (to bring my ramblings back on topic) that my general position is that it's certainly not impossible for a Tank to hold AoE hate - but that it gets trickier for a Tank to do so whenever there are a variety of DD types in the party. Particularly if that Tank is a little undergeared, or new to the dungeon, or on a bad connection or whatever. Whilst a Tank should still attempt to hold hate - and feel guilty if they lose hate to any of their party members - it might be beneficial for other party members (whether DDs or WHMs) to be prepared to be nice to their Tank and reduce their enmity gain a little on occasion if you see them struggling to hold hate. Ideally this enmity reduction would be without skimping on your DPS... I'd certainly advocate target-swapping or the use of Quelling Strikes etc. over asking you to deal less damage!

(Wall of Text Crits for 9001 damage, Paladin uses Cover and Hallowed Ground. Ack, lag!! >.<)

[Rundas342]

Im new to SMN and hit lvl 50. currently doing ifrit and i though they were wak dps. But after reading this you have changed my mind on this. All of you. Now one thing i must say is. The Class/Job Quest for ARC/SMN were so painful ;-; I never failed to much before in job/class quest. Keeping allies alive, and trying to out dps ifrit Egis nails was hard ;-;