Summoner - The whining needs to stop.

[NeonC]

I agree, tanking also involves knowledge of the other classes skills and experience using them. Really wish more people would venture out and try more classes. There are so many instances where people sleep/separate or don't aoe aggro when a summoner is in the group which drastically hurts the potential of the class.

[ChriskoOnAnotherLevel]

The problem is more so people like yourself, who lack the ability to think of anyone other than yourself.

Do you know why a tank would ask you to NOT spread your dots? Because it is almost impossible to hold high single target threat AND medium AOE threat at the same time.

So likely what is happening is you are doing your SMN thing spreading your dots, and someone else is following the kill order doing max single target dps.

They can likely aoe also, maybe not as well as your smn dots, but they can do it.

So the tanks either asks the single target dps to aoe, or he asks you to single target. Either way one of you is doing something they are not designed to do.

This is multiplied by the fact that lazy SMNs do not micro manage pets onto the focus target and do not focus the correct target with single target spells after they finish spreading their dots.

Play other classes and learn the roles of everyone in your party, then maybe you will become decent.

I see that I have wasted my time regardless, as you have nothing leveled to 50, and all the so called experience you have is likely in dungeons via DF.

[Mujaki2]

I don't understand why anybody would need to tell DPS to stop AEing. Even if you had someone doing high dps to a single target, that DPS can just not be retarded and actually swap targets once their hate was creeping up. In all scenarios it's more efficient to AE trash in dungeons and it's certainly not "close to impossible" to manage hate between 1 person AEing and 1 person single targeting. Maybe you're just using tanking DL accessories and have really low str/crit or don't have relic+1? I don't know.

[aswedishtiger]

It is almost completely impossible for a paladin (not sure about warriors) to hold sustained max AoE (esp with thunder Dotting as well) vs a relic+1 summoner.

The damage numbers are just too high.

So...I mean, people need to remember that they're working in a team here.

You are not the best dps in the world, you aren't proving anything by baning all the time.

If your tank wants you to stop, stop! What do you get by antagonizing your group lol. The point is to get through whatever run you're doing, and especially new tanks or pug tanks or people you haven't worked with all have their own idea of how they want to play the game.

So yes, the whining does need to stop, and it is YOUR whining.

Your team is a team. Work with them. If you're refusing to cooperate, you are the problem, regardless of how fast or how much damage you think you do.

I was gonna say something , but pretty much this ^

[GameGeeks]

I'm with Mujaki2, only way a Summoner will pull agro is if the Summoner far out gears the tank. I've played with both Paladins and Warriors that have no problem keeping AoE agro and single target agro. If your gear is causing issues then there are other things you can do such as changing target or just stop using Shadow Flare and Miasma II. You could even equip a few older pieces of gear to reduce your overall damage. That Relic +1 can be a massive issue in places like WP if the tank also doesn't have his relic. Either way though the tank should be able to handle booth single target and AoE dps. If he can't then he needs to learn to do his class. The only way he might not be able to do it is gear and then that falls to the dps to make adjustments accordingly.

[BrodyAlgana]

As a healer, I would rather see a DPS taking damage by grabbing aggro cause of high DPS than from standing in crap. One I will cure you through, the other you get a chance or 2, then you die. When I play my tank, I pull mobs, Flash, Flash, and every 10 seconds or so flash again (I have a rotation but I would have to be sitting in game to look at my bars to remember it lol). It seems to work up through and including Stone Vigil (tank is only 41). It is rare a DPS will steal aggro and even rarer that the healer does. Again, I say this not even having tanked anthing past 41 - so grain of salt would seem to apply.

[RhazeCain]

Lots of whining and flames on this thread, but there are also some interesting things buried in amongst it that I wish more people were aware of. Let's see if I can state plainly...

Fact1: Summoners are able to increase their overall damage output by having multiple DoTs going on different targets.

Fact2: Tanks must act differently depending on how much damage is hitting the various targets if they want to hold agro.

Fact3: If one DPS does heavy damage to a single target while other DPS does as much damage to multiple targets as possible, then there may be a situation where impossible for tank to hold agro on all targets. There just is no set of actions that results in all targets staying on tank. Tank has to choose between losing primary target or the other target(s).

Fact4: If there is a gear difference like tank weapon & offensive stats lower level than DPS, then there becomes less and less room for error on tank part. If bad enough, agro loss is guaranteed at some point or another (unless DPS holds back).

Fact5: I've met many people that are tunnel visioned on what they think is the "right" way to do things. Commonly that means mark targets 1, 2, 3 etc and single target DPS in that order. That's a reliable basic method, but it is quite possible to do "better" (see above). Requires communication and open minds to be able to choose and use different tactics.


A few anecdotes as well... I'm 50 WAR/PLD/WHM/BLM so far. Have done dungeons leveling and after on all of them. I think the permissions are right so that achievements on lodestone character are visible. You can go look up the Dungeon Siege IV achievement (300 instanced dungeons completed).

As WAR with Relic+1 when I do something like AK (trash mobs to kill), I have yet to see a situation where Summoner + other DPS made it impossible to hold agro. Like "Fact3" above, except my agro has been enough to overcome the worst anyone has thrown at me. Back when I was swinging ilvl55 weapon, that situation did actually occur. Worse is when you get BRD running Foe Requiem and a good BLM who isn't holding back -- that I actually found impossible to hold off BLM agro consistently. PLD I actually haven't played as much as WAR, but back when I was leveling up through the dungeons never really had any situations where impossible to hold agro on multiple targets.

As WHM and BLM, have seen wide variety of tanks. Some of them could handle holding agro when multiple targets taking damage, some could not (bad tanks). The lower level the dungeon, the more likely that you'll get one who hasn't learned to play yet. Please don't be the PLD that doesn't know what Flash is. Or the one that casts exactly 1 Flash and lets 2 targets hit the healer some seconds later. Next step up from those is the tank that thinks the only way to play is focus primary target & just enough agro on secondary targets to keep it off healer.

[Nova_Dresden]

The issue here is one of communication and everyone being on the same page as a team. Every DPS can't simply do as they like and then yell at the tank for not holding hate. The tank is responsible for holding hate within a reasonable strategy. The reasonable strategy doesn't ever need to involve DPS holding back. It may, however, involve how DPS select their targets and where they aim their damage.

The reasonable strategy should also involve some discretion and common sense on the part of the DPS as well. If your tank is still in the process of gearing up and you notice them in AF and using some Grand Company weapon or something decent off the AH then it wouldn't hurt to taper back your output to help them out instead of playing as if your tank is wearing AF2/coil drops with a relic+1 weapon. Threat in this game isn't the same as other games since the loss of enmity to anyone is a very real and ever present situation in this game, especially in multi-target scenarios in dungeons. Even weaving Rage of Halone combos through the pack, spamming flash in between, using Circle of Scorn on cooldown, and hitting provoke on a target when I do lose threat I'll still manage to lose hate because the enmity system in XIV is fairly tight in the AoE department and only the tanks seem to be paying attention to threat.

Single-target I mostly only have issues when someone (usually one of those fire-flinging, nuke-happy, robed fools) gets it in their head that one shield lob is enough threat to blow every cooldown and start spamming fire until they're out of mana. I pray for adds on some bosses because it means their damage on the boss stops for a period giving me some time to build up a sizeable lead for a while. Honestly I think WAR and PLD threat values need a larger multiplier just for more breathing room when gear disparity is present, and it wouldn't hurt to alter a few ability mechanics to help with threat (Circle DoT lasting as long as the ability cooldown, Flash maybe off the GCD, additional effect of increased enmity on combo starters Fast Blade/Heavy Swing, etc).

[Chezwick]

I play both PLD and SMN at 50. If a SMN is spreading dots , its really not that difficult to hold aoe threat while burning a single target. Is it more cumbersome and skill intensive for a tank? Yes. But I personally enjoy the challenge . I know what youre thinking.... Its so damn hard to flash and cycle through targets and cast a variation of abilities to hold threat. Really not hard. The problem is most tanks are too lazy to put forward effort in these situations or theyre just that damn bad.

The only time where I see threat being a problem, as stated above, is if the SMN is extremely geared and very good at the class ( which the majority are not.)

[KroLeXz]

My turn 5 tanks cannot hold aggro if I spread dots and multi dot thunder on them/ and shadowflare on the ground...either both our tanks suck or what pandabear states is true. One remedy of course is using quelling strikes which summoners have access too.