Summoner - The whining needs to stop.

[Calyanare]

DoT ticks don't wake monsters.

DoTs getting applied does.

Oh. I knew it was one way or the other. My FCmates mostly never sleep anything, it's only when I use DF that I run into people who bother with CC, so I forget about these things.

[Muziko]

If I understand the tankspeak in my FC, the PLDs rotate Emnity combos while sticking a Flash in here or there. So it goes...

Shield -> Flash (in mob) -> Start single target rotations, jumping from one mob to the next. DPS focus down the marks while the tank keep the emnity on all the mobs. It seems to work pretty well, as I've never been able to pull AK mobs off them with Bane.

[Maelwys]

I've had BLMs in groups that were WAY overgeared (only thing they didn't have was any coil drops) and perpetually bitched that I couldn't keep stuff off of them. The first boss in Castrum Meridianum is an excellent example because one BLM with relic +1 made that dungeon hell. After his first Astral Fire rotation there was nothing me or the other tank could do to pull it off of him. Nothing. Provoke didn't do anything, spamming everything we had, using all MP on Flash, etc. I was only able to buy him a few second with Cover when it was up, but nothing the warrior tank did even phased it. And during all that bitching about taking damage it never occurred to that BLM to SLOW DOWN. He had one speed on his damage output that he was unwilling to adjust, and it's stuff like that that makes a lot of tanks either bitter or just quit.

In that kind of situation, I probably would have spoken up in party chat with something along the lines of: "OK guys, let Black Mage Evilwizardington have his fun. {Manawall} {Tank} {You can have this}."

And if he still didn't back down, let him tank the boss.

Seriously. If he's fully Relic/Tome geared in an AF party and refuses to slow down, let him tank and faceplant, and then leave him chewing dirt until the boss is beaten (if he hasn't ragequit before then). As long as your healers don't waste their entire MP bar trying to keep him alive, the remaining party members will easily complete the boss after the "problem player" is out of the picture. In those situations the best thing a Tank can do for the party is make sure they stay #2 on the aggro list so that hate goes back to where it should be once the overeager party member dies. Your responsibility as a Tank is to protect the rest of the party as best you can - maintain a good hate lead over the rest of the players, let the idiot faceplant, and then the remaining members of the party can continue the fight as normal.

I can sort of understand if you had been fighting trash mobs and the BLM kept focussing on one target and pulling hate from it - if they're highly geared then they can tank a trash mob without much bother, so it wouldn't have been a problem for the rest of you. Bosses are another story. No sympathy for them there.

Technically a Summoner could also pull that same level of ST DPS on a boss, so I suppose all this would apply to them too... (though not so much on the trash mobs - if they're spreading their DoTs out then it'll be a lot easier to hold hate on even if they're rocking a relic)

All gear being equal, I agree with PiedPiper. A good Tank should never lose hate to similarly-geared DPS players (though occasionally they might bottom out their MP and TP trying to do so!!) and shouldn't lose hate to Healers apart from in exceptional circumstances. But the "starter" endgame dungeons (CM, Castrum, Ifrit, and especially WP) will often see wide variances in the type of gear people bring, and it can sometimes help to be a wee bit flexible...

[Engineer]

..........

[Nova_Dresden]

In that kind of situation, I probably would have spoken up in party chat with something along the lines of: "OK guys, let Black Mage Evilwizardington have his fun. {Manawall} {Tank} {You can have this}."

Tried to laugh it off with a "Nice tanking, SoandSo" and his reply was "someone had to tank that". He pulled the same thing on the second boss and died at least once. After that he started bitching that he had to use only Blizzard I for the entire dungeon because any casting of Fire would immediately put him at #1 on threat no matter how much of a lead the two tanks had. Since then I give one warning and let them die afterward. I'd rather keep one DPS alive and take more time to complete the dungeon than run around fighting someone for hate because they're battling an imaginary boss in their deluded minds.

[KoujiGeki]

oh dont worry, now we can only bane 3 whole monsters. Thanks SE

[PetiteMalFleur]

Tried to laugh it off with a "Nice tanking, SoandSo" and his reply was "someone had to tank that". He pulled the same thing on the second boss and died at least once. After that he started bitching that he had to use only Blizzard I for the entire dungeon because any casting of Fire would immediately put him at #1 on threat no matter how much of a lead the two tanks had. Since then I give one warning and let them die afterward. I'd rather keep one DPS alive and take more time to complete the dungeon than run around fighting someone for hate because they're battling an imaginary boss in their deluded minds.

The BLM probably would not have had this issue if he waited to go all out a few seconds to let the tank build enmity.

[Kevee]

oh dont worry, now we can only bane 3 whole monsters. Thanks SE

It was always like that.

[Hiroradius]

One of the bigger problems is, most tanks don't know how to tank. I'll run 3 or 4 wp/ak runs a day a week, always pugging a tank, and I have a friend healer who is very good who can keep me up when I become the tank. The reason, Tank pulls 3 mobs, I target his mob, Miasma, Bio 2, Bio, Lightning, Bane, Shadow Flare, the other two mobs come running after me and then I end up tanking the last of the trash. Tank yells, "Focus on my target", I say back, "Learn to tank, if you can't tank and hold agro through 1 rotation, then you need to learn to play" Boss mobs, generally speaking first AK boss, I end up tanking the priest, and kiting the golems (sometimes the white mage has to kit the golems though) while tank can't get agro.. really? When I try and go all out, I can pull all the mobs off him, it's just sad, 1 rotation and I have the agro?

[NoctisUmbra]

As a MNK main, who also has experience tanking and playing SMN at 50, let me chime in with my 2 cents here.

I agree that hate isn't the easiest thing when you've got a ST-focused MNK and an AoE focused SMN/BLM as DPS. Typically in this scenario, it's more so a problem of communication really.

Just due to how the skill setup is on SMN, you'd want them to be making use of Shadow Flare and Bane whenever they can. The amount of DPS gain they provide is quite significant, just due to how Bane works (off GCD, spreads DoT damage that is alrdy good on a ST to 2 other targets ).

The thing is, typically when the party makeup is not one that is particularly AoE favoring (ie. no SMN in party) then it is better for DPS to burn down 1 target at a time unless there are a large number of mobs on the tank (ie. more than 2-3). This is often due to high priority targets being present, and also making the tank's life easier, faster.

That being said, with a SMN in party in order to make full use of their DPS, as a MNK I typically take a more AoE approach. This involves me using my Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes on various targets, and spreading my DPS through either Rockbreaker, or temporarily focusing on the target with the highest HP to bring it down to the same HP level as the rest of the mobs.

The issue here is one of communication and everyone being on the same page as a team. Every DPS can't simply do as they like and then yell at the tank for not holding hate. The tank is responsible for holding hate within a reasonable strategy. The reasonable strategy doesn't ever need to involve DPS holding back. It may, however, involve how DPS select their targets and where they aim their damage.