SCH DPS > SMN DPS?

[Aethyriel]

really the only argument you could possibly bring up would be the support pet in a raid setting and the overall grp dps being higher because of it when you dps as SCH instead of a SMN. Other than that I don't see it and I just stumbled on this thread and only play smn/Sch for fun so I don't really care enough to do the actual math =s

[glim]

@Ayla

selene's buff doesn't increase everyone's dps by 10%, for me personally fey glow only decreases my spellspeed by 0.14, that's around 140 spellspeed every 30 seconds, or 70 average spellspeed. 70 spellspeed is not a 10% dps increase, and even when considering the entire party, I'm confident that the 66 dps of garuda out dpses this marginal increase and even when compared to the whole party, it's basically just giving .56 total cast decrease to the raid as a whole (not each). (spellspeed ep value is really low for every class)

high int from items > cleric stance

my scholar hits 160 ruins with cleric stance and the arcanist 30 int, with all the possible int items ie. jewelries, my summoner hits 200 damage ruins

scholars cannot out dps summoners, but it's a lot closer than I thought.

[glim]

I equipped my full darklight SMN set and garuda dps book (since my scholar doesn't have +1 relic)

my SMN was hitting 160-170 ruins.

I equipped my scholar gear with int jewelries and garuda book (armor pieces with no int)
cleric stance

my SCH was hitting 149-160 ruins.

but what if instead of armor pieces with no int, craft vanya healing set melded with int in them.

scholar might out damage the smn when it comes to pound for pound potency..

the question is, is having aero and unlimited mana over fester enough? let's see, fester is 900 potency per minute vs energy drain 450 potency per minute, so the difference is 500. aero is 650 potency per minute, but uses a gcd so let's minus three ruins so it's aero's 410 potency per minute vs fester's 500 per minute. 90 ppm difference.. really not that much, not sure if having unlimited mana compensates the 90 ppm difference though.

the difference really is just coming from the pet, garuda vs selene. well it's pretty obvious that selene loses in terms of dps, but well she helps heal and buff group dps slightly, oh rouse,spur and enkindle too.

SMN outdpses the scholar in the end, but damn, never thought a healer class' dps could come this close.

EDIT: actually, I'm stupid, this is the first time I've read cleric stance and it says "swaps int and mind attribute ratings" so melding vanya healing gears with int is pretty darn useless.

[Sapphidia]

Oh yes, don't get me wrong - I know Summoner is miles ahead of Scholar. I hadn't considered the Accuracy as Determination/Crit will be pretty similar between the two and I'm used to only using my Arcanist -outside- of Coil where accuracy is pretty much capped anyway. But yes, you'll need to do some fiddling with melds to make it remotely viable.

My main thought was "what could possibly make the OP's friend think Scholar was better", and I think the answer to that is simple. In most cases, Scholar DOTs will do slightly more DPS than Summoner DoTs. Maybe about 5%, the difference between the 15 Intellect and the 10% Cleric Stance boost. So with a class so heavily dot-focussed, seeing Scholar DoTs do more dps on paper might lead someone to assume they do more dps in total.

[AylaYukihana]

EDIT: actually, I'm stupid, this is the first time I've read cleric stance and it says "swaps int and mind attribute ratings" so melding vanya healing gears with int is pretty darn useless.

Yup, A SCH would focus on MND to boost healing, so cleric stance just changes it to INT. SCH gets bonus MND from traits as well. Essentially its the same INT.

Its not 3 x 300 Festers vs 3 x 150 Energy Drains, its 3 x (150 x 1.1 due to Cleric Stance = 165) = 495, difference in a minute is 405 pot via Fester for the SMN. Aero is 200 pot, minus the GCD which could be spent on Ruin, is an advantage of 120 pot. Lets give it ~400 pot per minute. It almost cancels out the advantage Fester has. Now, bc of Energy Drain spam, SCH has MP to spend on Thunder. Thats 240 pot for a GCD use, minus Ruin its a 160 pot advantage.

SCH's personal dps is ~10% higher if accuracy is not an issue. Thunder spam, Sel's buffs.. versus SMN's ~66 dps from the pet.

Edit: In a PT situation, can see clearly SCH with Sel buffing the PT cast speed and skill speed, actually might pull ahead of a SMN. Also, I forgot to add Cleric Stance 10% boost to Aero and Thunder, its actually 220 and 264 potency, meaning a SCH with energy drain and Aero is dishing out more potency per minute than SMN with Fester.. add extra Thunder spam.. its a big difference to personal dps.

[Kevee]

Yup, A SCH would focus on MND to boost healing, so cleric stance just changes it to INT. SCH gets bonus MND from traits as well. Essentially its the same INT.

It almost cancels out the advantage Fester has. Now, bc of Energy Drain spam, SCH has MP to spend on Thunder. Thats 240 pot for a GCD use, minus Ruin its a 160 pot advantage.

SCH's personal dps is ~10% higher if accuracy is not an issue. Thunder spam, Sel's buffs.. versus SMN's ~66 dps from the pet.

Edit: In a PT situation, can see clearly SCH with Sel buffing the PT cast speed and skill speed, actually might pull ahead of a SMN. Also, I forgot to add Cleric Stance 10% boost to Aero and Thunder, its actually 220 and 264 potency, meaning a SCH with energy drain and Aero is dishing out more potency per minute than SMN with Fester.. add extra Thunder spam.. its a big difference to personal dps.

MND passive doesn't convert with Cleric Stance.
SCH has a stat deficiency unless they use full iLVL 70 items(healing items come with Piety instead of a second offensive substat).
SMN uses Thunder, too.
Cleric Stance doesn't effect Shadow Flare.
et cetera, et cetera.

At most, Cleric Stance/Aero makes up for Fester/15 less INT, but not for Spur/Pet/Contagion/Raging Strikes/Enkindle. All of these make up for a substantial amount of our DPS.

Those buffs are fairly useless, except to BLM/WHM/PLD/(healing)SCH. Even they(BLM) are limited by the global timer when regenerating MP, however.

Now, I would agree that Sch would do ~5-7% more damage, base, but that in no way comes close to compensating for Pet/Spur/Enkindle/Contagion/Raging Strikes/necessitating HQ ilvl 70 gear.

Always been curious about dots and raging strike. Haven't been able to find anything to back up the idea it's worthwhile to use or if it just works on the first tic of a dot and that's it.

If you use/cast a DoT, and the debuff lands on the target, while Raging Strikes is present on you, the full duration(and extension with Contagion) will have boosted damage. So SMN goes way beyond the RS timer with boosted DoTs. At a minimum, Bio II has 45 seconds, Bio has 33 seconds, Miasma has 39 seconds, Thunder has 33 seconds, and Miasma II has 30 seconds worth of RS time.

[GameGeeks]

If you use/cast a DoT, and the debuff lands on the target, while Raging Strikes is present on you, the full duration(and extension with Contagion) will have boosted damage. So SMN goes way beyond the RS timer with boosted DoTs. At a minimum, Bio II has 45 seconds, Bio has 33 seconds, Miasma has 39 seconds, Thunder has 33 seconds, and Miasma II has 30 seconds worth of RS time.

I can understand that being a good thing, but I'm more looking for the data to prove it. Worse case I just get a target dummy and try it. Not like it's hard to get to level four in Archer, especially with armory xp bonus.

And for your last post, Arcanists do have access to Contagion. Just goes by Shinning Emerald. Same effect as Contagion. Though the rest mostly stands in terms of gear.

[Kevee]

I can understand that being a good thing, but I'm more looking for the data to prove it. Worse case I just get a target dummy and try it. Not like it's hard to get to level four in Archer, especially with armory xp bonus.

And for your last post, Arcanists do have access to Contagion. Just goes by Shinning Emerald. Same effect as Contagion. Though the rest mostly stands in terms of gear.

You don't need any data.

That's how DoTs work.

They take a snap-shot of whatever buffs/debuffs you have when you apply them.

Same goes for Cleric Stance, BRD and their DoTs/Buffs, everyone.

And for your last post, Arcanists do have access to Contagion. Just goes by Shinning Emerald. Same effect as Contagion. Though the rest mostly stands in terms of gear.

Yeah, I derped. No reason to edit it now that's it been quoted.

[Sapphidia]

In identical level gear, a Scholar should do 10% more dps than a Summoner if both classes use -equivalent spells-. That is, a Scholar's Bio, Miasma, Bio 2 and Ruins should hit 10% harder than a Summoner's. This assumes that a Scholar in good gear can get basically the same Mind as a Summoner can get Int, and then using Cleric Stance to swap them for 10% extra damage.

The difference of course is a.) the pet's dps, b.) swapping Energy Drain for Fester, c.) extra Ruins due to Contagion allowing less dot casts and d.) Raging Strikes as a DPS cooldown.

You have to compare those with Selene's cast/attack speed buff. There's no way a Scholar will be able to out-dps a Summoner in equivalent gear, but a Scholar can definitely contribute incredibly significant DPS to a party in situations they arent required to spam heal. I'd wager OPs friend is napkin-mathing the 10% boost from Cleric Stance and isnt aware of just how much damage Pet/Contagion/Fester actually adds.

EDIT - just checked on my 50 Arcanist. Both of my Scholar and Summoner have basically identical gear but with mind/int swapped (eg, garuda weapons, strategos vs demagogue etc), and I run a 15/15 Mind/Int stat setup as it's not my main. Thus, both classes have identical amounts of Int and Mind respectively on their gear. My Summoner has 391 Int, my Scholar has 376 Mind. The extra int comes from the +12 total from Enhanced Intelligence Traits, and I think 3 difference on base stats + Soul Crystal.

So a Summoner will always have +15 Int more than an equal geared Scholar has Mind, which should equate to less of a damage boost than a flat 10% from Cleric Stance. Don't forget in testing that spells have variable values. My ruins hit the same target anywhere from 150 to 170 damage varying. Swapping between Cleric'd Scholar and Summoner, I'm seeing next to no noticeable difference in the power levels of the spells.

So TLDR - Summoner and Scholar do about the same DPS if you don't factor in the Pet, Raging Strikes, Fester and Contagion. How much more DPS a Summoner brings to the party is about comparing those 4 DPS sources with how much total party DPS Selene's speedbuffs add, which will vary based on party size/composition/gearing.

[Kevee]

In identical level gear, a Scholar should do 10% more dps than a Summoner if both classes use -equivalent spells-..

Don't forget the SCHs lack of Accuracy, if they're using MND/Healing gear, and the lack of a secondary stat on accessories since those come with piety(unless you use crafted).

They'd be forced to use Vanya and/or accessories socketed completely with ACC(for coil), and unless you do use those there is no way you're even coming close to a SMN anywhere. You completely lose out on a substat since healer items come with Piety.

So TLDR - Summoner and Scholar do about the same DPS if you don't factor in the Pet, Raging Strikes, Fester and Contagion. How much more DPS a Summoner brings to the party is about comparing those 4 DPS sources with how much total party DPS Selene's speedbuffs add, which will vary based on party size/composition/gearing.

That's well over a 100 DPS difference.

It's not going to vary, the speedbuffs are not going to add that.

Personally, for me, it gives me ~.2 seconds off my GCD. So it takes ~12-13 GCDs, only while the buff is present, to see any noticeable gain("gaining" a GCD), which will most likely be used for Ruin. 80 potency.

And it's not going to be real useful for melee, and especially BRD. BRD actually has a near-zero value for skill speed due to the way they want to time their DoTs.

The google docs now need requested permission, but some info is here:

http://chocobro.com/forum/viewtopic....&t=32&start=30

Remember, skill/spell speed increases DPS but not damage, and it can't increase DPS past the point of MP/TP returns. The DPS gain is marginal for most classes/jobs, however. SMN/SCH/BRD/MNK/DRG all see less returns than other classes/jobs due to relying on DoTs and strict timers(not to mention how GL and Skill Speed for MNK/PUG work against each other), and how fast they bleed dry if they need to AoE at all.