Turn 5 Twister Strategies Compendium

[Richard_BG]

Meh..maybe I'm just thinking too much about it :P

thinking waaaaaaaaaay too much about it lol

[Soukyuu]

But you illustrate the EXACT issue with game mechanics these days. The "heads up" display, i.e. "Don't let the stalker get you" and big red circles, you get these days is exactly why games and communities are being dumb down. We should NEVER be fed these mechanics unless it has something to do with story progression of some type.

I guess I didn't bring the point over clear enough. There is a difference between "in your face" hints of the likes "don't let him get you" and showing you an example/hint of what you have to do. They could have did it differently, namely by just letting the stalker catch up to you and stab you - you have a hint (treasure hunters dying) and punishment for not following the hint (you getting stabbed)

With AoE the hint isn't that subtle, yes. In 1.0, we used to have to watch the monster for hints, their pose switched depending on what they were going to do. For example watching Ifrit's leg positioning to anticipate eruption - which gave a visual hint by itself.

If people actually figured out how to avoid it then it means there was a subtle hint in game that provided them with an idea. Its just a matter of how obvious it was. Its more likely things hiding in plain sight that people decided to ignore.

With twisters, you do get a visual mark, the small vortex appearing under you just before it blows you up - the problem is that it looks similar to, say, eruption's visual hint which tells you to go away - if you do that with twisters though, you blow up - inconsistent input to the user from the game that video I linked touches on as well.

The only RNG involved is what 4 players they will target each rotation.

I'm not really complaining about RNG, only about the seeming obscurity of the mechanic that is inconsistent with what the player learned so far.

My problem with "difficulty by obscurity" is that an encounter designed like that becomes much easier, sometimes trivial, once you figure out all mechanics, rather than to rely on actual player skill. This is not to say this particular encounter is easy, or that people will be winning against Twintania with ease now, but we just went from "unbeatable" (=difficulty level infinity) to "beatable with enough effort". That's already a significant drop in my eyes.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

just went from "unbeatable" (=difficulty level infinity) to "beatable with enough effort". That's already a significant drop in my eyes.

..which is what happens when progressing, really. Everything that's not "unbeatable" can be "beatable with enough effort" once you figure out what to do.
You would have preferred to let her keep the status of "unbeatable", instead?

It was bound to be killed, sooner or later. And this is way better than discovering it was bugged for a LONG time and that people wasted time and effort banging their heads against a bugged fight.

[Soukyuu]

..which is what happens when progressing, really. Everything that's not "unbeatable" can be "beatable with enough effort" once you figure out what to do.
You would have preferred to let her keep the status of "unbeatable", instead?

It was bound to be killed, sooner or later. And this is way better than discovering it was bugged for a LONG time and that people wasted time and effort banging their heads against a bugged fight.

This is really not the problem I am describing. There is no progression involved in solving an obscure mechanic for you as a player. You are not getting better with your class. Your skill is irrelevant while you are beating against the obscurity wall with random tries to figure out what to do, or trying to find hints you might have missed.

There is no wall. Just a fight that requires proper execution and excellent play to overcome.

That is only true if you figured out the mechanics of the twister only, though.

edit: your double post just switched the order of the posts @_@

[Richard_BG]

My problem with "difficulty by obscurity" is that an encounter designed like that becomes much easier, sometimes trivial, once you figure out all mechanics, rather than to rely on actual player skill. This is not to say this particular encounter is easy, or that people will be winning against Twintania with ease now, but we just went from "unbeatable" (=difficulty level infinity) to "beatable with enough effort". That's already a significant drop in my eyes.

It was never "unbeatable". Hasn't been beaten yet =/= unbeatable. Let the crying masses get into your head and you start to believe the hype. We always knew it was beatable with proper execution. As to it being "beatable with enough effort", we didn't throw ourselves at a wall until it fell over. There is no wall. Just a fight that requires proper execution and excellent play to overcome.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

This is really not the problem I am describing. There is no progression involved in solving an obscure mechanic for you as a player. You are not getting better with your class. Your skill is irrelevant while you are beating against the obscurity wall with random tries to figure out what to do, or trying to find hints you might have missed.

That is only true if you figured out the mechanics of the twister only, though.

And why do you believe that "progressing" necessarily means "getting better with your class"?
You can get better in other ways as well - this is probably one of these cases (even if excellent execution is still a very important factor)

In this case, we have a group of people who managed to do something that no one else did before; they "progressed" in the game, no questions.

The fact that they needed to use their heads and "think outside of the box" to try and figure out what the "secret" was is not something bad per se, it's a novelty (not really, The Secret World already does this) and definitely interesting, at least for me and probably for others as well.

[Soukyuu]

And why do you believe that "progressing" necessarily means "getting better with your class"?

Because in my opinion, that's what progressing in the game means - clearing content by executing your role more or less flawlessly. I'm not forcing everyone to accept that stance, that's just my personal opinion.

You can get better in other ways as well - this is probably one of these cases (even if excellent execution is still a very important factor)[...]
The fact that they needed to use their heads and "think outside of the box" to try and figure out what the "secret" was is not something bad per se, it's a novelty (not really, The Secret World already does this) and definitely interesting, at least for me and probably for others as well.

I don't see it as something bad, but as I said, for me, the mechanics of twisters go against already established rules. Whether it's because I don't see the hints or another reason, I don't know.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

Because in my opinion, that's what progressing in the game means - clearing content by executing your role more or less flawlessly. I'm not forcing everyone to accept that stance, that's just my personal opinion.

I don't see it as something bad, but as I said, for me, the mechanics of twisters go against already established rules. Whether it's because I don't see the hints or another reason, I don't know.

Well, as they said themselves, this fight requires pretty much a perfect execution - so it's still not an easy fight even after you figure out how to deal with Twister.

And the fact that Twisters go against established rules (we will have to wait for their explanation to say this, honestly) might be exactly the point.

It's hard for a reason, and "expecting players to think outside of the box" is definitly something that makes a fight hard :P

[Senzura]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDi2NlsA4nI

I think this is relevant to the discussion

[Soukyuu]

Well, as they said themselves, this fight requires pretty much a perfect execution - so it's still not an easy fight even after you figure out how to deal with Twister.

And the fact that Twisters go against established rules (we will have to wait for their explanation to say this, honestly) might be exactly the point.

It's hard for a reason, and "expecting players to think outside of the box" is definitly something that makes a fight hard :P

I didn't claim the fight is easy now :P
I will let myself be surprised by that explanation of how it works, maybe it ends up being totally clear and not in conflict with any rules as I currently feel it is.

Yo I just gotta say, this Soukyuu guy is super butthurt.

And I would be that because of what reason, again?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDi2NlsA4nI

I think this is relevant to the discussion

"What they didn't know is that the food was distributed at random and had nothing to do with their actions". <- lol
I don't think it's random in this case though.