Please do not lock Jobs to the Weapon Class that unlocks them.

[Joeking]

That is like saying "American Cars use Automatic Transmissions" "Only Automatic Transmissions can be used in American Cars"

I agree with this, America needs to have automatic only transmission, the sophisticated workings of a manual transmission if far to difficult.

[Focant]

The amount of circular reasoning and semantics dancing in this topic is just over the top. I still think it's FAR too early to be making a suggestion remotely like this, but in the interest of laying things out I'm going to ask you to do something for me.

If you would, in as clear and concise a way as you can achieve, please answer these questions: What is it you want? Why do you think it's important we have it? How will it fit in with current game systems?

Add in any necessary definitions or whatever you need to answer them, but be sure to be clear. If you'd kindly do this for me I'll respond in turn and, hopefully, we can all get a better understanding of EXACTLY what your point is since, as it stands, you seem to be saying thirty different and contradictory things.

[BloodLotus]

Classes
Actions will undergo major revisions, along with both the underlying mechanics and conditions.

By major revisions, not only do we mean the tweaking of effects and potency of existing actions - we will work from the ground up to redesign and reassign actions based on clearly identified class roles.

We will also make a number of changes as part of our reexamination of how actions are equipped and the character requirements for doing so. First, actions learned by each class will be set to the action bar by default when playing as that class. Also, we will be making some actions settable on any class, while other "class-defining" actions obtained at higher ranks will be usable only by that class.


Jobs

The job system - that series-defining trademark - will be implemented in FINAL FANTASY XIV (details such as specific jobs TBA). Quests to unlock each job will become available once you have reached a certain rank in the corresponding class.
Rather than being advanced versions of classes, we would like players to think of jobs as specialized playing styles optimized for partying. While playing as a particular job will render you unable to equip certain actions of other classes, you will be compensated with access to exclusive actions, which can be acquired through quests.

In practice, players will find the existing classes effective when playing solo or in certain party setups. Jobs, however, will shine in party situations where specific skill sets are demanded. Now, you didn’t hear this from me, but there are also rumors circulating that quests for obtaining job-exclusive equipment are also in the pipes.
We at the development team are currently hard at work on the job system, and expect to have details to share with you soon.

Where in there does he say Jobs are being implemented to create Class Uniqueness?
Protip: He doesn't. See in Red.

The Reason they are implementing jobs stems from two core reasons.

1. Players asked for the Traditional Job Names to be implemented but the devs felt changing the Armoury system and renaming the Classes as they were went against the core designs of the Armoury System which says your Weapon is your Class there is no difference between it. Links? Also depending on when the post was versus the dev post that triggered it it's irrelevant

2. Players asked for the ability to better identify themselves as being set for a specific role in combat. Conjurers were tired of being asked to parties to heal when all they want to do is nuke. The Job System readily fixes this issue. No one is arguing this point. A Conjurer will probably have a job with some skills that will help it be a better nuker. The name of this job will probably be Black Mage. But you will probably have to be a Conjurer to have access to the Black Mage Job and Black Mage Exclusive Skills.


None of those issues has to do with the Armoury Systems Class Uniqueness. It has to do with FF Nostalgia and Easy Role Identification. You're special

Quesadillas. mmmm

[Amineri]

Class = Weapon
Job = Role

Class = Weapon
Job = Hat

same thing :P FF: 4 Heroes of Light used the Hats to depict the Jobs. worked great actually.

Cairdeas, your thought here exploded in my head.

So, I realize that the developers probably already have something in mind regarding jobs and how they will interact with classes. One point I found interesting was that Matsui-san listed Classes & Jobs both under the Armoury title heading, implying that both are going to be considered as a part of revamped system. How would job fit under Armoury?

Let my blatant and wild speculation begin...

After reaching appropriate class rank (e.g. rank 20 conjurer), a new quest becomes available to unlock a job (e.g. Black Mage).
After completing the quest, your character gains the attribute Level 1 in the job (e.g. Black Mage), and receives a job-specific piece of gear (e.g. Black Mage hat).

In this example, equipping the Black Mage hat then is what sets your job to Black Mage. Additionally, the Level 1 Black Mage ability / trait is granted by that very hat. At rank 25 Conjurer, a quest opens up to unlock Level 2 Black Mage, and grants an item Black Mage Robe. Again, the level 2 Black Mage Robe grants the level 2 Black mage ability.

Now is where the fun could really begin. Now, clearly job gear would have to preclude mixing and matching with other job gear, in order to preserve job definition / role. However, additional forms of Job Gear could be made available! That is, multiple types of Black Mage hats: some could be craftable, some available from quests, some available from NMs, and perhaps some available as rewards from Grand Companies. Each of the hats could have different stats and possibly different attributes.

With six basic pieces of gear, and the addition of four zero slot cost job-specific pieces of jewelry, 10 levels of a job could be defined by gear (I suppose you could add two more via job specific underwear ).

Now, how does this relate jobs to classes? Simple, simple, each piece of job-specific gear would have its own set of required classes. Those pieces of gear that grant the most powerful abilities may be restricted to only one class, while more moderate abilities could be opened up to several classes.

This system would give a fair amount of freedom to players to be able to mix and match weapons (i.e. classes) with jobs, and everything would fall naturally under the armoury system. It also would give the developers the tools to directly limit the more obviously broken combinations, or the combinations that don't fit in with the world lore as it is envisioned.

That said, it's all a pipe-dream, and I'll just have to see how it turns out.

[Reika]

I hope it isn't equipment that sets your job, because that would just be MORE inventory space to use up. If anything it should be . . . . . . Moogles

[BloodLotus]

The amount of circular reasoning and semantics dancing in this topic is just over the top. I still think it's FAR too early to be making a suggestion remotely like this, but in the interest of laying things out I'm going to ask you to do something for me.

If you would, in as clear and concise a way as you can achieve, please answer these questions: What is it you want? Why do you think it's important we have it? How will it fit in with current game systems?

Add in any necessary definitions or whatever you need to answer them, but be sure to be clear. If you'd kindly do this for me I'll respond in turn and, hopefully, we can all get a better understanding of EXACTLY what your point is since, as it stands, you seem to be saying thirty different and contradictory things.

I want jobs to be class specific.

If jobs are class specific an individual can have a sense of pride or accomplishment by being as good at their job as possible. (Oh hey look at Jimmy Jones! He's an awesome Dragoon!)

Alot of people find enjoyment in being recognized as being excellent in their favorite role.

The current system you equip a weapon and become a class, that class says you do this type of work. A gladiator is known for it's sword and shield. Marauders for it's large axes. Pugilists for their Hand weapons. Archer for their bows. Lancer for their polearms.

You equip a lance to become a lancer. At 85 Lancer has access to a quest to unlock the Dragoon Job. This job has the skill Jump.

If I equip a sword I am now a Gladiator and no longer have access to the dragoon job and jump. However I now have access to the berserker class where I can dual wield swords and have berserk.

Good?

[Focant]

Sorry Blood that was actually meant for Cairdeas, though it helps to have everyone lay out their premise. :P

I agree that jobs should be class specific and dependent on the conditions required to unlock the job in the first place. To arbitrarily throw out an existing mechanic, namely that weapons are intrinsically tied to the class you play, when moving into a system that's layered upon and, more than likely, reliant on the basic class system makes little to no sense. Apparently though I have the wrong impression of what Cair wants so I'm trying to get him to lay it out.

[BloodLotus]

Cairdeas, your thought here exploded in my head.

So, I realize that the developers probably already have something in mind regarding jobs and how they will interact with classes. One point I found interesting was that Matsui-san listed Classes & Jobs both under the Armoury title heading, implying that both are going to be considered as a part of revamped system. How would job fit under Armoury?

Let my blatant and wild speculation begin...

After reaching appropriate class rank (e.g. rank 20 conjurer), a new quest becomes available to unlock a job (e.g. Black Mage).
After completing the quest, your character gains the attribute Level 1 in the job (e.g. Black Mage), and receives a job-specific piece of gear (e.g. Black Mage hat).

In this example, equipping the Black Mage hat then is what sets your job to Black Mage. Additionally, the Level 1 Black Mage ability / trait is granted by that very hat. At rank 25 Conjurer, a quest opens up to unlock Level 2 Black Mage, and grants an item Black Mage Robe. Again, the level 2 Black Mage Robe grants the level 2 Black mage ability.

Now is where the fun could really begin. Now, clearly job gear would have to preclude mixing and matching with other job gear, in order to preserve job definition / role. However, additional forms of Job Gear could be made available! That is, multiple types of Black Mage hats: some could be craftable, some available from quests, some available from NMs, and perhaps some available as rewards from Grand Companies. Each of the hats could have different stats and possibly different attributes.

With six basic pieces of gear, and the addition of four zero slot cost job-specific pieces of jewelry, 10 levels of a job could be defined by gear (I suppose you could add two more via job specific underwear ).

Now, how does this relate jobs to classes? Simple, simple, each piece of job-specific gear would have its own set of required classes. Those pieces of gear that grant the most powerful abilities may be restricted to only one class, while more moderate abilities could be opened up to several classes.

This system would give a fair amount of freedom to players to be able to mix and match weapons (i.e. classes) with jobs, and everything would fall naturally under the armoury system. It also would give the developers the tools to directly limit the more obviously broken combinations, or the combinations that don't fit in with the world lore as it is envisioned.

That said, it's all a pipe-dream, and I'll just have to see how it turns out.

This would be interesting.

[Cairdeas]

What is it you want? Freedom of Choice to pick what ever weapon I wish for use with a Job AFTER I have mastered it.

Why do you think it's important we have it? Because not everyones definition for a Specific Job includes a Defined Weapon of Choice. And some enjoy following past FF lore, or building their character based of off a specific image of how they want their character.

How will it fit in with current game systems? Because the Job System defines Role, Skills, and Traits, the only thing weapon is left to define is Stats. Stats can be compensated against with gear so by allowing players to experiment with various combinations they can find a set up they truly enjoy.

Example. If a Player enjoys playing as someone who attacks monsters from behind, and enjoys doing it with a Great Axe, they should be allowed too. This would essentially be a Marauder/Thief based on skills in the game already, This combination would do nicely on its own. But if Thief is relegated to being unlocked and only usable by Gladiator, or Pugilist (Depending on which Class unlocks it.) Then a Marauder/Thief option becomes unusable even if its a very valid and very powerful option.

The downside to this openness is that some combinations might not be very powerful. An Archer/White Mage might not be the best healer. But if you lock Classes and Jobs only on certain patterns it breaks with the tradition of Final Fantasy XIV as it already stands, as well as past Final Fantasy's. In that the best option is not always the only option available. Some options are not the best option but are still an option and its up to the player to decide that for themselves.

[Sorel]

Your Job is tied to your class. You cannot be a Dragoon in any class other than Lancer. You may be able to use some skills from Dragoon in other classes like we can currently, but you will not be a Lancer/Dragoon, you will be whatever class/job you are with some Dragoon skills.

It very well might work like that, but keep in mind that such a mechanic has to be universal. It may make intuitive sense that only the Lancer Class can have the Dragoon Job, but then the Development Team has to apply that rule universally across all the Jobs.

• Only [X Class] can have [Y Job].
• Only the Lancer Class can have the Dragoon Job (makes intuitive sense).
• Only the Archer Class can have the Ranger Job (also makes sense).
• Only the Pugilist Class can have the Monk Job (makes sense too).
• Only the Marauder Class can have the Warrior Job (makes sense).
• Only the Gladiator Class can have the Thief Job (the only DoW that can use a shield is also the only one that can be a Thief?? Not very intuitive).
• Only the Conjurer Class can have the White Mage Job (debatable, but OK).
• Only the Thaumaturge Class can have the Black Mage Job (so Black Mages would have to cross-class conjury elemental nukes at reduced effectiveness, since Conjurers won't be allowed to be Black Mages. That doesn't seem to make much sense).
• Only the ?? class can have the Red Mage Job (ran out of classes).
• Only the ?? class can have the Paladin Job (ran out of classes).
• Only the ?? class can have the Dark Knight Job (ran out of classes).

See the problem. Now one way out of this problem is instead of making classes to jobs one-to-one, make them two-to-one.

• Only Lancers and Marauders can have the Dragoon Job.
• Only Archers and ?? can have the Ranger Job.
• Only Pugilists and ?? can have the Monk Job.
• Only Marauders and Gladiators can have the Warrior Job.
• Only Gladiators and Pugilists can have the Thief Job.
• Only Conjurers and Thaumaturges can have the White Mage Job.
• Only Thaumaturges and Conjurers can have the Black Mage Job.
• Only Conjurers and Gladiators can have the Red Mage Job.
• Only Gladiators and Conjurers can have the Paladin Job.
• Only Marauders and Thaumaturges can have the Dark Knight Job.

New problem. All the Jobs now have classes, but because there are 10 Jobs to 7 Classes we have an imbalance. The only fix for this imbalance would be to add 4 additional Jobs beyond the ones listed above. Doesn't sound bad, right??

With 14 Jobs to 7 Classes things are balanced and the game is ready for launch! YAY!!

However the case, to maintain that balance, any time a new class or job is introduced in the game a corresponding number of classes and/or jobs MUST be introduced in order to maintain the balance. So if the Development Team wants to give us a new Class, they have to come up with two new Jobs for that Class. If they want to give us a new Job, they have come up with a new Class and an additional Job to maintain the balance. This is in addition to balancing all the skills and abilities of the new Jobs and/or Classes. Seems like a lot of extra work just to keep people from being axe-wielding White Mages.

---OR---

The Development Team can have no restrictions and let any Class play as any Job (mind you I'm not talking about unlocking Jobs, I'm talking about playing them). Then players (individually and as a community) will have a chance to experiment and decide what they want to play, both solo and in a party. Also this will allow the Development Team to concentrate on balancing skills instead of the number of specializations a particular Class may or may not have access to when introducing new Classes and/or Jobs.

So I understand where people are coming from when they say that only certain classes should only be certain jobs. But enforcing that in game, with code, brings its own set of complications.