Please do not lock Jobs to the Weapon Class that unlocks them.

[Vesperia]

SE, just hire cairdeas already

[Focant]

The amount of circular reasoning and semantics dancing in this topic is just over the top. I still think it's FAR too early to be making a suggestion remotely like this, but in the interest of laying things out I'm going to ask you to do something for me.

If you would, in as clear and concise a way as you can achieve, please answer these questions: What is it you want? Why do you think it's important we have it? How will it fit in with current game systems?

Add in any necessary definitions or whatever you need to answer them, but be sure to be clear. If you'd kindly do this for me I'll respond in turn and, hopefully, we can all get a better understanding of EXACTLY what your point is since, as it stands, you seem to be saying thirty different and contradictory things.

[BloodLotus]

The amount of circular reasoning and semantics dancing in this topic is just over the top. I still think it's FAR too early to be making a suggestion remotely like this, but in the interest of laying things out I'm going to ask you to do something for me.

If you would, in as clear and concise a way as you can achieve, please answer these questions: What is it you want? Why do you think it's important we have it? How will it fit in with current game systems?

Add in any necessary definitions or whatever you need to answer them, but be sure to be clear. If you'd kindly do this for me I'll respond in turn and, hopefully, we can all get a better understanding of EXACTLY what your point is since, as it stands, you seem to be saying thirty different and contradictory things.

I want jobs to be class specific.

If jobs are class specific an individual can have a sense of pride or accomplishment by being as good at their job as possible. (Oh hey look at Jimmy Jones! He's an awesome Dragoon!)

Alot of people find enjoyment in being recognized as being excellent in their favorite role.

The current system you equip a weapon and become a class, that class says you do this type of work. A gladiator is known for it's sword and shield. Marauders for it's large axes. Pugilists for their Hand weapons. Archer for their bows. Lancer for their polearms.

You equip a lance to become a lancer. At 85 Lancer has access to a quest to unlock the Dragoon Job. This job has the skill Jump.

If I equip a sword I am now a Gladiator and no longer have access to the dragoon job and jump. However I now have access to the berserker class where I can dual wield swords and have berserk.

Good?

[Reika]

I want jobs to be class specific.

If jobs are class specific an individual can have a sense of pride or accomplishment by being as good at their job as possible. (Oh hey look at Jimmy Jones! He's an awesome Dragoon!)

Alot of people find enjoyment in being recognized as being excellent in their favorite role.

The current system you equip a weapon and become a class, that class says you do this type of work. A gladiator is known for it's sword and shield. Marauders for it's large axes. Pugilists for their Hand weapons. Archer for their bows. Lancer for their polearms.

You equip a lance to become a lancer. At 85 Lancer has access to a quest to unlock the Dragoon Job. This job has the skill Jump.

If I equip a sword I am now a Gladiator and no longer have access to the dragoon job and jump. However I now have access to the berserker class where I can dual wield swords and have berserk.

Good?

We wont see Dragoon for ages if it is 85 . But Jobs shouldn't be locked to the class that unlocks them...

[Cairdeas]

What is it you want? Freedom of Choice to pick what ever weapon I wish for use with a Job AFTER I have mastered it.

Why do you think it's important we have it? Because not everyones definition for a Specific Job includes a Defined Weapon of Choice. And some enjoy following past FF lore, or building their character based of off a specific image of how they want their character.

How will it fit in with current game systems? Because the Job System defines Role, Skills, and Traits, the only thing weapon is left to define is Stats. Stats can be compensated against with gear so by allowing players to experiment with various combinations they can find a set up they truly enjoy.

Example. If a Player enjoys playing as someone who attacks monsters from behind, and enjoys doing it with a Great Axe, they should be allowed too. This would essentially be a Marauder/Thief based on skills in the game already, This combination would do nicely on its own. But if Thief is relegated to being unlocked and only usable by Gladiator, or Pugilist (Depending on which Class unlocks it.) Then a Marauder/Thief option becomes unusable even if its a very valid and very powerful option.

The downside to this openness is that some combinations might not be very powerful. An Archer/White Mage might not be the best healer. But if you lock Classes and Jobs only on certain patterns it breaks with the tradition of Final Fantasy XIV as it already stands, as well as past Final Fantasy's. In that the best option is not always the only option available. Some options are not the best option but are still an option and its up to the player to decide that for themselves.

[BloodLotus]

What is it you want? Freedom of Choice to pick what ever weapon I wish for use with a Job AFTER I have mastered it.

Why do you think it's important we have it? Because not everyones definition for a Specific Job includes a Defined Weapon of Choice. And some enjoy following past FF lore, or building their character based of off a specific image of how they want their character.

How will it fit in with current game systems? Because the Job System defines Role, Skills, and Traits, the only thing weapon is left to define is Stats. Stats can be compensated against with gear so by allowing players to experiment with various combinations they can find a set up they truly enjoy.

Example. If a Player enjoys playing as someone who attacks monsters from behind, and enjoys doing it with a Great Axe, they should be allowed too. This would essentially be a Marauder/Thief based on skills in the game already, This combination would do nicely on its own. But if Thief is relegated to being unlocked and only usable by Gladiator, or Pugilist (Depending on which Class unlocks it.) Then a Marauder/Thief option becomes unusable even if its a very valid and very powerful option.

The downside to this openness is that some combinations might not be very powerful. An Archer/White Mage might not be the best healer. But if you lock Classes and Jobs only on certain patterns it breaks with the tradition of Final Fantasy XIV as it already stands, as well as past Final Fantasy's. In that the best option is not always the only option available. Some options are not the best option but are still an option and its up to the player to decide that for themselves.

In all of my posts all I was trying to say is that this probably won't be how it works.

[Focant]

What is it you want? Freedom of Choice to pick what ever weapon I wish for use with a Job AFTER I have mastered it.

Why do you think it's important we have it? Because not everyones definition for a Specific Job includes a Defined Weapon of Choice. And some enjoy following past FF lore, or building their character based of off a specific image of how they want their character.

How will it fit in with current game systems? Because the Job System defines Role, Skills, and Traits, the only thing weapon is left to define is Stats. Stats can be compensated against with gear so by allowing players to experiment with various combinations they can find a set up they truly enjoy.

Example. If a Player enjoys playing as someone who attacks monsters from behind, and enjoys doing it with a Great Axe, they should be allowed too. This would essentially be a Marauder/Thief based on skills in the game already, This combination would do nicely on its own. But if Thief is relegated to being unlocked and only usable by Gladiator, or Pugilist (Depending on which Class unlocks it.) Then a Marauder/Thief option becomes unusable even if its a very valid and very powerful option.

The downside to this openness is that some combinations might not be very powerful. An Archer/White Mage might not be the best healer. But if you lock Classes and Jobs only on certain patterns it breaks with the tradition of Final Fantasy XIV as it already stands, as well as past Final Fantasy's. In that the best option is not always the only option available. Some options are not the best option but are still an option and its up to the player to decide that for themselves.

Alright, thanks for replying.

The desire for greater character freedom is one I'm sure anyone can get behind and I don't think anyone wants to restrict it if they can help it. Of course, there are limitations to just how much and in what capacity this can be given while still maintaining the structure of the game. I was hoping you'd define for me what you consider a "class" and perhaps give a reasoning for why you think the class to weapon bond should be broken for the job system but oh well. Anyways, this is based on my own interpretation of what little info was given regarding the new job system, so I may make some false assumptions.

As it is now "class" is defined by your weapon. The skills you learn are also dependent on your class and your proficiency within it. I can't say that, necessarily, your weapon determines your skills, as there is cross class usage, but it certainly has an effect on the usefulness of those abilities. Now, the job system is, as I understand it, an extension of the class system. Jobs have specific class requirements and each are further specializations into specific party roles, more than likely in line with the basic role of the class it was born from. So you may have lancer expand into a DD job or a support job. Not simply general roles but extensions of the way these roles were achieved by Lnc itself, namely debuffs a la Dnc placed on the enemy or piercing attacks. In taking on this specialization, the jobs give up a level of freedom in cross class skill usage in favor of special skills they themselves can only use. You can make a conscious decision to take on a certain role and gain a boost in that area, giving up your diversity for it.

Now, the problem is you seem to be asking for diversity in a system that is built around the idea of specialization. To swap to another weapon would not suddenly give you access to new skills, as many are locked out during the move into "job" status. There is no freedom to be gained in a restricted system and the only freedom is in your ability to choose a specialization to adapt to whatever situation you find yourself in. Also, while I don't have a drawn out reasoning pointing to this, it doesn't make much sense to me to suddenly remove the role of weapons in defining purpose out of some idea that the skillsets make up for it. They don't replace classes they augment them and it's only natural that the class they are meant to enhance remains intact. Classes are the foundation and jobs are the structure.

I think a critical mistake many are making in this discussion is comparing XIV to older games on a one to one basis. Of course parallels can be drawn and many of the names applied to jobs will more than likely come from previous FFs. However, that does not mean they are equal and does not mean we can use games that aren't XIV to define what XIV is.

Finally, it may sound a bit dismissive, but it's entirely true. If you want to play a healer, you play a healer. Don't try and make the DD into a healer. If you do you remove any semblance of a job system and it simply becomes a skill system, something that the class system already borders along.

Edit: Sorry just wanted to clarify one point. Some skills ARE reliant on your weapon such as Speed Surge which specifically states "Requires: Polearm." It's not entirely relevant to my post but I just wanted to put that out there.

[Focant]

Sorry Blood that was actually meant for Cairdeas, though it helps to have everyone lay out their premise. :P

I agree that jobs should be class specific and dependent on the conditions required to unlock the job in the first place. To arbitrarily throw out an existing mechanic, namely that weapons are intrinsically tied to the class you play, when moving into a system that's layered upon and, more than likely, reliant on the basic class system makes little to no sense. Apparently though I have the wrong impression of what Cair wants so I'm trying to get him to lay it out.

[Draco]

Cairdeas, I guess I am not understanding your post. In your post, you are assuming that Lancer is going to unlock Dragoon, and Archer will unlock Ranger. I do not see how they would ever have a lancer, and a dragoon, or a archer, and a ranger in the game at the same time. The only way that would make sense is if Dragoon was designed to replace Lancer @ Rank 50, and you are not able to Rank Lancer any higher. Basically, a promotion system. I did not read anywhere in the post that he mentioned a promotion system, so I would pretty much rule that out. Also, you mentioned at the bottom of your post that if you want to play a Thief/Marauder, you should be able to. I did not read anything that mentioned a main job/sub job system. Again, I may have just missunderstood your post.

[BloodLotus]

Cairdeas, I guess I am not understanding your post. In your post, you are assuming that Lancer is going to unlock Dragoon, and Archer will unlock Ranger. I do not see how they would ever have a lancer, and a dragoon, or a archer, and a ranger in the game at the same time. The only way that would make sense is if Dragoon was designed to replace Lancer @ Rank 50, and you are not able to Rank Lancer any higher. Basically, a promotion system. I did not read anywhere in the post that he mentioned a promotion system, so I would pretty much rule that out. Also, you mentioned at the bottom of your post that if you want to play a Thief/Marauder, you should be able to. I did not read anything that mentioned a main job/sub job system. Again, I may have just missunderstood your post.

I don't know about him, but I'm using Lancer and Dragoon as examples because I like those classes/jobs I had one in 11.

But the names of the Jobs aren't meant to be taken literally. They might not have any name we know of.

Using rift and their souls setup as an example....

http://www.riftgame.com/en/classes/index.php

Pretend Warrior Cleric Rogue and Mage are the classes we have now; Gladiator, Lancer etc.

Now imagine the Souls (Champion, Purifier, Nightblade and Elementalist) are the equivalent of Jobs.

Cairdeas wants to be able to use skills from Elementalist as a Warrior.