Job Customization

[Duelle]

I know you're familiar with FFXI, so you quite well know that XI actually had choice for a lot of jobs. I mention red mage, and you focus on RDM in your sig, so clearly you're familiar with that.

You mean "sub white mage because the game lacks dedicated healers so you can be shackled to healing and spamming buffs", "sub black mage and get laughed out of groups because your nukes are still subpar and are 'less useful' to the group because you're not focusing on healing", and "sub WAR/NIN/DNC and be kicked off the game from the sheer power of the alliance's collective laughter at the idea of you wanting to do something other than heal/buff"? RDM is not the best example for what you're trying to argue.

This game presently offers you no choice in gearing. There is a best in each tier. There's no choice in stats, there's a best for that too. There's no real choice, for paladin at least, in what abilities you equip and it's not because there can't be, it's because they choices they offer are silly.

If you argue abilities, then you're conveniently forgetting that this is done for the sake of balance between jobs, in tandem with traits that enhance said abilities for their native classes.

The abilities don't have to be "useful" 100% of the time, as the core of jour job is defined by native class abilities and the five job abilities you get. Cross-class abilities are for additional utility and flavor, but are not and should not be job-defining. From one paladin to another, my bars currently have Cure, Raise, Foresight, Mercy Stroke, Fracture; outside of Foresight, they all don't get used 100% of the time, but that is fine.

If you argue gearing, you're basing that entirely on wanting to be a unique snowflake with no practical gain to gameplay on a larger level. Keeping stat gains and job/class scaling on a tight leash is for the sake of balanced gameplay, and it'll be a cold day in hell before I support the alternative.

We may look different, but we're all ascending to be precisely the same thing on each job. Worse, there's not even any opportunity to get it wrong. If something is higher tier, you equip it, and the sub-job abilities practically place themselves.

If the choice is between "balanced classes with a very limited selection of cross class abilities that 'place themselves' while being more for flavor", and "balance clusterf*ck where people might think they are special snowflakes but there is in reality one sole good way to do things and a trillion under-performing set ups that get laughed out of groups that do the content that matters", I'm going to pick the former every time.

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Now, if you wanted something a little more cosmetic, I may support that. Going off the minor glyphs from WoW that modified abilities cosmetically without changing gameplay, maybe even adding silly flavor abilities or modifications to spells and special effects. I'd love a Glyph of Mercy Stroke that changes the animation to simulate the weapon type you're using so that instead of a giant axe rising from the ground a giant sword raises from the ground (would sort of ressemble Night Sword from FF Tactics, so you can even tie an FF reference to it!).

[Steeled]

You mean "sub white mage because the game lacks dedicated healers so you can be shackled to healing and spamming buffs", "sub black mage and get laughed out of groups because your nukes are still subpar and are 'less useful' to the group because you're not focusing on healing", and "sub WAR/NIN/DNC and be kicked off the game from the sheer power of the alliance's collective laughter at the idea of you wanting to do something other than heal/buff"? RDM is not the best example for what you're trying to argue.

Prior to SCH, RDM was a great healer. SCH didn't change RDM, but it did kind of knock it down a peg. WHM could heal harder, but RDM had better throughput. The thing about RDM was the original job to straddle both lines. It could assist in damage until the group needed some healing and then could immediately provide that. Gearswap macros made it possible for you to nuke efficiently and heal efficiently.

RDM also tanked, as you know. It was the original soloer, claiming everything from Faust, to Charybdis, to Urteil (=P) most recently.

The game changed, negatively, after 75.

Anyway, no, I don't want just cosmetic toys. I want functional choices to make. I, for one, like the opportunity to do things wrong. I like the opportunity to do things differently and I feel like this game, more than any other, deprives us of that choice. I don't want to be a special snowflake, but I do want an actual choice to make and this game has managed to give us *none*. It's astounding.

It is not because I have any dreams of being a special snowflake, but because choice allows us to compensate. If I know I'm playing with a weak healer, I might want to gear/"spec" for that.

If you argue abilities, then you're conveniently forgetting that this is done for the sake of balance between jobs, in tandem with traits that enhance said abilities for their native classes.

Balance between jobs? Like how Warrior and Paladin are balanced? How Scholar and White Mage are balanced (edit: enmity)? How Dragoon and Monk are balanced? It wasn't done for the balance of anything, and if it was, it was done poorly. White mage is a fine healer, but I'd rather have a scholar. In high-healing situations, its nice when a healer can do its job without riding the tank's threat (Hi Titan). Monk is a fine DPS but Dragoons do it better, and though it lacks the desired limit break, bards do it best.

The abilities don't have to be "useful" 100% of the time, as the core of jour job is defined by native class abilities and the five job abilities you get. Cross-class abilities are for additional utility and flavor, but are not and should not be job-defining. From one paladin to another, my bars currently have Cure, Raise, Foresight, Mercy Stroke, Fracture; outside of Foresight, they all don't get used 100% of the time, but that is fine.

No, I'm talking about abilities that aren't useful. If you can't cast stoneskin, curing yourself has value, but minimal. The bosses usually hit a lot harder than a Paladin can cure for (and rightfully so), so the best you're going to do is delay death for a second. Stoneskin is more likely to save you, especially since when everyone is playing properly, a heal shouldn't be far away.

Tell me what a Paladin or gladiator is to do with Skull Sunder, please. That ability was thrown in there for the appearance of choice. Even if Heavy Swing was in there, it wouldn't belong because paladin has it's own counterpart abilities.

If you argue gearing, you're basing that entirely on wanting to be a unique snowflake with no practical gain to gameplay on a larger level. Keeping stat gains and job/class scaling on a tight leash is for the sake of balanced gameplay, and it'll be a cold day in hell before I support the alternative.

We don't work for the Adventurer's company, we shouldn't all be wearing the same uniform, but that is there is only one path presented to us. Everybody, do this the same way.

[Shiyo]

Did you just say Scholar and WHM aren't balanced? The best set up for almost every situation in the game is WHM + SCH, they are flawlessly balanced. This game really has the best balance of ANY MMO ever created, warrior is the only thing not balanced and my group can clear turn 1-4 in a single day with Warrior + PLD tanks in HORRIBLE gear because we've gotten ZERO drops for them and the WAR is using relic +1 and didn't spend myth tomeson any armor.

[Duelle]

RDM also tanked, as you know.

Through an oversight in enmity gained from spamming enfeebles (which got readily nerfed).

It was the original soloer

Which a responsible developer team would have nerfed to the ground within hours of it being discovered, not used as an excuse to not fix the job in ways it actually needed fixing.

Six years and still waiting for melee fixes that won't come, to the point I'm asking SE for a fitting Red Mage in a game completely separate from FFXI just so that I can bury the hatchet.

If I know I'm playing with a weak healer, I might want to gear/"spec" for that.

The correct answer is "kick the weak healer or play around their weaknesses to minimize them", not "change your class' performance to compensate for them".

It's one thing to help out the healer in a dire situation (I've thrown off heals on stuff like the dragon in AK and HM garuda) without sacrificing your role. It's another to do part of the healer's job for them.

Balance between jobs? Like how Warrior and Paladin are balanced?

WAR and PLD's problem comes from not enough being done to have a standard tank kit, and hopefully that will get addressed soon enough.

How Scholar and White Mage are balanced?

Shiyo already answered this, but SCH and WHM are close to if not perfectly balanced.

How Dragoon and Monk are balanced?

In the hands of people who know their jobs very well yes, MNK in particular can produce exceedingly good DPS. It's one of the few jobs that have a steep learning curve (though even I will agree with Greased Lightning needs more uptime through a duration extension).

[Steeled]

Did you just say Scholar and WHM aren't balanced? The best set up for almost every situation in the game is WHM + SCH, they are flawlessly balanced. This game really has the best balance of ANY MMO ever created, warrior is the only thing not balanced and my group can clear turn 1-4 in a single day with Warrior + PLD tanks in HORRIBLE gear because we've gotten ZERO drops for them and the WAR is using relic +1 and didn't spend myth tomeson any armor.

No, I didn't. I gave the one aspect of where they "aren't balanced", the enmity department, which occasionally, really matters.

Like I said, I love WHMs, I just prefer Scholars

Edit: I reread what I said about it. Sorry for the implication that whm has some...flaw. There's just an ocean of difference between WHM who will occasionally ride the tank's threat and scholar who, when solely healing, is barely visible on the meters.

RDM tanking an oversight in enmity gained from spamming enfeebles (which got readily nerfed).

I don't know about "readily" nerfed. But yeah it got nerfed.

They famously used an RDM tank in part of the AV video, and then nerfed it several months later.

Which a responsible developer team would have nerfed to the ground within hours of it being discovered, not used as an excuse to not fix the job in ways it actually needed fixing.

See, I disagree. I don't think RDM needing some defining traits had anything to do with its independence. SE is quite capable of leaving jobs alone for years when they suck in every regard (lolpup, loldrg)

The correct answer is "kick the weak healer or play around their weaknesses to minimize them", not "change your class' performance to compensate for them".

You've never assisted or carried a friend? I have, it's kind of what I enjoy. I love endgame serious raiding, but I love being able to carry friends too. It's just what I find fun in a game.

It's one thing to help out the healer in a dire situation (I've thrown off heals on stuff like the dragon in AK and HM garuda) without sacrificing your role. It's another to do part of the healer's job for them.

There are people, very skilled and geared people who view it differently. Not me, not yet. I don't quite have the gear yet, but like Titan for Tots guys. They don't mind carrying people. Even the guilds that sell runs cheap. They pocket a little money and help someone who doesn't have an FC capable of killing it. I have always been the type of player that doesn't mind stepping outside of my role and carrying more if it gets the win. I just like doing it.

In the hands of people who know their jobs very well yes, MNK in particular can produce exceedingly good DPS. It's one of the few jobs that have a steep learning curve (though even I will agree with Greased Lightning needs more uptime through a duration extension).

Yes it can. Bard's strength is enhanced by their mobility and lack of positional requirements. I can almost understand why they don't have a damaging LB.

[Steeled]

An example even is that because so mach of wrath's combat was proc based, like critting on a spell reset a cooldown, or made the next other-spell free (like Cure/Cure2/Cure3, but a whole lot better), there was so much gearing choice in Warcraft, and believe it or not, both were very viable. Healer's could gear for critting, and procs, or the could gear for casting really fast. Because the gear affected the job, like paladin had an equip that lowered the cost of one method's primary heal, it was the best in slot for that sort of build. However, the other build had a best in slot libram that was a different piece, and both managed to be competitive.

Discipline priests were great tank healers, if they spec'd for it, or they were great raid healers (by mitigating damage) if they spec'd for it. The gearing was different, and people dedicated to jobs often carried multiple sets.

Here, the gear is so bland. The only reason Warrior's don't wear Valor Surcoat is because it says PLD on it. (Bit of sarcasm, I don't know what the WAR's i90 stats are).

I don't know, it's a shame that it appears I'm in the minority here, but everything is so bland in choices. Everybody does everything exactly the same, if they can.

[Kallera]

We don't work for the Adventurer's company, we shouldn't all be wearing the same uniform, but that is there is only one path presented to us. Everybody, do this the same way.

You will conform, PLD number 573313D.
Customization is a lie,
there is only the build,
there is only the repetitive tasks. *bzzt*

/sarcasm

I think I remember warning of this in the beta forum.

[Sylve]

An example even is that because so mach of wrath's combat was proc based, like critting on a spell reset a cooldown, or made the next other-spell free (like Cure/Cure2/Cure3, but a whole lot better), there was so much gearing choice in Warcraft, and believe it or not, both were very viable. Healer's could gear for critting, and procs, or the could gear for casting really fast. Because the gear affected the job, like paladin had an equip that lowered the cost of one method's primary heal, it was the best in slot for that sort of build. However, the other build had a best in slot libram that was a different piece, and both managed to be competitive.Discipline priests were great tank healers, if they spec'd for it, or they were great raid healers (by mitigating damage) if they spec'd for it. The gearing was different, and people dedicated to jobs often carried multiple sets.

Here, the gear is so bland. The only reason Warrior's don't wear Valor Surcoat is because it says PLD on it. (Bit of sarcasm, I don't know what the WAR's i90 stats are).

I don't know, it's a shame that it appears I'm in the minority here, but everything is so bland in choices. Everybody does everything exactly the same, if they can.

You realize that there was no way to spec separately for raid healing or tank healing as a Disc Priest, and all it involved, was a mouseover macro bound to Power Word: Shield and the occasional Prayer of Healing/ Prayer of Mending? And should i also mention that more than one Disc Priest in a raid meant the second Priest, or even the Holy Priests couldn't use their own Shields due to how Weakened Soul worked?
And those Librams didn't last long at all, they killed off the spell bonuses fast when people were keeping ilvl 200 Relics and Librams all the way up to Lich King because the benefits to the one spell overshadowed the stat gains from higher ilvl drops. Once again, the illusion of choice.
As to the bland gear argument ... We're getting the Vanity slots soon, so you can look however you like.

I should also mention that gear appearances in WoW are so bland these days, that the Raid drops are just recolored Tier set pieces. Oh, and Raid drops are virtually pointless since the Tier set bonuses exist.
The only reason people have not complained is because of Transmogrification and 5 years worth of Expansion sets.
Crafted gear is also pointless since its overshadowed by Tier sets and often the stuff that drops out of raids anyways.

You seem to be looking at WoW through some VERY rose tinted goggles here buddy.

[Khalette]

The cross class skill system doesn't work in this game at all, it honestly shouldn't exist. All cross-class skills should be given default to every job that uses them 99% of the time, like swiftcast to WHM/SCH/SMN and fracture/b4b for monk/bard.

I absolutely disagree. I'm a casual player and hate the idea that I have to level classes I don't want to for certain abilities, BUT I do love the cross-classing in this game. I love how one character can be everything you want, and I love how fluid the changes between two jobs are.

WoW's MOP is horrible with obvious choices, and I feel like if this game takes too much from other games it will lose it's identity like Rift.

With that being said, I do believe that there should be more customization for classes beyond sub class abilities. I do think you should make choices between cool-down abilities that help enhance one aspect of your class's role such as support, cc, mitigation, or healing/damage procs.

Did you just say Scholar and WHM aren't balanced? The best set up for almost every situation in the game is WHM + SCH, they are flawlessly balanced. This game really has the best balance of ANY MMO ever created, warrior is the only thing not balanced and my group can clear turn 1-4 in a single day with Warrior + PLD tanks in HORRIBLE gear because we've gotten ZERO drops for them and the WAR is using relic +1 and didn't spend myth tomeson any armor.

Ironically, lack of customization helps with having balance among classes.

[Kallera]

As to the bland gear argument ... We're getting the Vanity slots soon, so you can look however you like.

I should also mention that gear appearances in WoW are so bland these days, that the Raid drops are just recolored Tier set pieces. Oh, and Raid drops are virtually pointless since the Tier set bonuses exist.
The only reason people have not complained is because of Transmogrification and 5 years worth of Expansion sets.
Crafted gear is also pointless since its overshadowed by Tier sets and often the stuff that drops out of raids anyways.

You seem to be looking at WoW through some VERY rose tinted goggles here buddy.

Vanity System be damned, I don't want this to be our future.