Job Customization

[Steeled]

I regret that my key perspective to this is for Paladin. I'm not asking for buffs to paladin, but I'm asking for variety in the job system. I realize that jobs are more powerful than their class-counterparts but I've always felt that classes sounded more fun. In my brief time in 1.0, I had more fun on Gladiator than Paladin.

SE,

Please, in the future, give us ways to differentiate ourselves from other players.

I can't speak for many jobs, but for Paladin, there is virtually no choice in skills, once you have your subs leveled. The biggest choice is really whether you want to equip a terrible cure or stoneskin, which at least scales with our hp.

Though being able to your raise your healer after a battle is nice, it has no combat usefulness, and the walk back is never very long in a dungeon. You're better off equipping a combat useable ability, and being more likely to win, than the "convenience" of being able to raise.

Every other MMO I've played, every single one, had choices. While, with a given goal, there was nearly always a best choice (these were called 'cookie-cutter' builds), it sometimes varied from goal to goal, and usually offered a few points for options.

Warcraft (Pre-Cata...cata really dumbed things down) had specs, and there were a few choices you could make while picking up necessary abilities.
RIFT, though I didn't play it long, had similar spec setup, but you had to go x-deep in other trees before going deeper in your main tree.
FFXI had merits, and for some jobs, merits were rigid, best choice, and for others, they were more fluid. Some jobs the choice didn't really matter, or was a little bit up to player preference (partially true for Red Mage, Bard, BLM, Ninja). Paladin was pretty customizable to your style of play.
FFXI also had subjobs, which not only could sometimes change how you merited (meriting based on your most-common sub), but itself individualized classes. For a short time, dual wield warrior was competitive, in very geared situations, with 1h Warrior. Tanks could choose a sub depending on the content and their task. The nice part about subs is that they were very fluid.

At one point, Tanking Paladins in Warcraft could choose to do 0-5% more damage or be healed for 0-5% more. Usually, the choice was damage, because most of that healing went to overhealing. 5% more of a tanks dps sometimes made the difference. The same is true in this game, however a wow tank might spec 5% more healing received for something like Titan HM.

The panes seem filled with some lackluster stuff and the choices become virtually non-existent. Not that I would want to, but I can equip Skull Sunder from Marauder, but cannot equip Heavy Swing, meaning that I cannot fulfill that combo. It takes the same GCD as most other abilities, so there's no benefit, ever, to a paladin using it, not even while below level 10 (though he'd be a gladiator at level 10 lol).

[Livilda]

While I don't like your tone, I do agree that the cross-class options for Paladin are definitely lacking, and would like to see more meaningful options. Raise is useless - either we wipe and return, or win and whoever died returns and shortcuts back if the dungeon isn't just already over. Need battle raise for it to be worthwhile. Cure is equally useless, mine heals for 3-6% of someone's max HP. Not even worth the cast time.

And what's up with Warriors getting Flash but us not getting Overpower?

[O_Villania]

And what's up with Warriors getting Flash but us not getting Overpower?

uh, just for the sake of it...
same complaint from us WARs.

Why do PLDs get Foresight, while we don't get Rampart?

[Vinta]

Let me educate you on the original intention of the addition of "jobs" to the class-based armoury system:

Classes are meant to be a base to start with, that you can build out to your heart's desire and customize.

Jobs (which are separate from classes) were added as ways to make your class form-tailored to situations. For example, Gladiator goes from a generic sword-and-shield fighter with some tankiness to an I-fight-for-my-friends Paladin. As another example, Archer goes from being a purely offensive hail of arrows to dipping its hands more toward the supportive role.

That all being said, I'm still upset Gladiator can't receive elemental spells. I had a for-fun Red Mage mock build in 1.0.

[Steeled]

This really wasn't meant to be ABOUT PALADIN, just that paladin is my sampling into the job system. I also have whitemage 50 and am equally unimpressed, but my ACN sub is only 15 so I guess that could change.

While I don't like your tone, I do agree that the cross-class options for Paladin are definitely lacking

What's wrong with my tone? I wasn't trying to be snarky or sarcastic. I'm not trying to make any jabs at SE, so would alter my text if there really was something offensive there.

And what's up with Warriors getting Flash but us not getting Overpower?

Flash is AOE while Overpower is Conal. Given the nature of this combat, both tanks need a way to get the attention of everything around them and not hope the pull is lined up perfectly. While I wouldn't mind overpower, I think it intrudes on warrior territory for Paladin to get overpower.

uh, just for the sake of it... Why do PLDs get Foresight, while we don't get Rampart?

Definitely, a legitimate issue.

Let me educate you on the original intention of the addition of "jobs" to the class-based armoury system:

Classes are meant to be a base to start with, that you can build out to your heart's desire and customize.

Jobs (which are separate from classes) were added as ways to make your class form-tailored to situations. For example, Gladiator goes from a generic sword-and-shield fighter with some tankiness to an I-fight-for-my-friends Paladin. As another example, Archer goes from being a purely offensive hail of arrows to dipping its hands more toward the supportive role.

That all being said, I'm still upset Gladiator can't receive elemental spells. I had a for-fun Red Mage mock build in 1.0.

I know all that, which is why I said that during my time in 1.0, I had more fun on GLA than PLD.

[Sylve]

Paladins don't get Overpower because they don't need it.
Flash and Riot Blade is more than enough to hold off healer hate. If the DD are focusing several different targets and not the Tanks one .. thats the fault of the DD, not the Tank.

My Warrior isn't yet 50, But theres not a single situation I've been in that i ever thought to myself damn, if only i had Rampart we could of won that! Thrill of Battle gives me nearly 1k HP, combined with Second Wind, i can often use them to survive a blow a Paladin couldn't even with Rampart up.

I know what you're asking, for some more personal customization, but that kind of isn't really possible. Using the Talent systems from from WoW (before and after they butchered it) and RIFT, There was always a 'cookie cutter' build, and builds that just flat out didn't work for any kind of content.
And even some builds that were totally amazing for solo content, but useless in group situations.

What we have now is a small level of choice in subclass skills to take, and there isn't much more they could do to change that due to how unique each class feels from other classes. As an example, despite very similar skillsets, tanking on my Warrior feels very different to tanking on my Gladiator. Which is part of why i chose to level the Warrior first.
My SCH feels way different to my CNJ, and my Monk to my LNC.
Opening up the crossclass skills just blurs the lines on that unique feeling the classes have.

It's unfortunate that you wish to be a special snowflake among Paladins, but really, changing what we have risks breaking the feel of the classes. Giving us stat choices isn't so great either, because it falls into the same trap as the WoW/RIFT talent system, the 'best' build is mathed out and becomes the only acceptable way to play.

[Steeled]

At 50, your desire for rampart will change. Most Warriors, of all gear levels, will agree the job needs some love. Yeah warriors have a lot more hp than paladins but it's almost always better to take less damage than have more health. Less healing is needed, and less enmity is created, among other things.

It is the state Warriors are in that makes me hesitant to ask for changes from a paladin's perspective. I'm not saying my blue toyota is less fun to drive than your red honda, I'm saying driving on Square's highways isn't that fun. Never see a 4x4 or a motorcycle. Lame analogy, I know.

It is possible though. They could start by adding a glyph system. Let us customize abilities to our liking. For instance..

Glyph of Cure - for paladins
Your cure now has a 10 second cooldown but heals for three times as much (this is only 6-700 for a paladin in normal gear).

[Shiyo]

The cross class skill system doesn't work in this game at all, it honestly shouldn't exist. All cross-class skills should be given default to every job that uses them 99% of the time, like swiftcast to WHM/SCH/SMN and fracture/b4b for monk/bard. Some don't even make sense at LOWER levels, keeping up straight shot as a Pugilist even at the 20-25 levels is very cumbersome and clunky and doesn't work properly with your class, because your rotation is very strict and kinda set in stone to how it functions, and doesn't really feel "Right" rotating in straight shot.


The cross-class system is super fun for some classes 1-30, but once jobs come into the picture it becomes very generic and essentially doesn't exist anymore, with very obvious choices of what's good and what's bad laid out in front of you. SCH basically gets swiftcast, thunder, aero,stoneskin and clrerics stance, no one else in their right mind will pick up any other cross-class skill, so why have them?

I understand it's super hard to balance around people making their characters differently or trying to make a tank pugilist/monk or something(not possible with current cross-class system) or a DPS Conjurer(not possible), but it could at least be somewhat INTERESTING. A system like WOW where you get choices of 3 different DPS increases, then 3 utility skills, then 3 survivability skill choices,3 support skill choices(depending on class), 3 Crowd control skill choices, then 3 "ultimate" fun skill choices kind of like MOP's skill tree system would be nice, because something needs to be done in a future expansion to make it more interesting, or it'll be phased out even more. The cross-class system has a loooong way to go to be actually interesting, because honestly, right now, I don't think it should exist.

edit: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#l| Is MOP's skill tree's, kind of the cross-class system done right.

[Duelle]

I know what you're asking, for some more personal customization, but that kind of isn't really possible. Using the Talent systems from from WoW (before and after they butchered it) and RIFT, There was always a 'cookie cutter' build, and builds that just flat out didn't work for any kind of content.

This. The OP is asking for the illusion of choice for the sake of having it instead of realizing that it's not choice at all and thus a waste of resources that could be used by the class balance team for more worthwhile endeavors.

It's unfortunate that you wish to be a special snowflake among Paladins, but really, changing what we have risks breaking the feel of the classes. Giving us stat choices isn't so great either, because it falls into the same trap as the WoW/RIFT talent system, the 'best' build is mathed out and becomes the only acceptable way to play.

Agreed. We've already hit the point of "you must place X points into Y stat to be acceptable", and the game is not even two months old yet.

[Steeled]

Or, read the thread.

I acknowledged that most "customization" in other games had best in slot choices which left you a few points to play with, and in some cases, no points. I know you're familiar with FFXI, so you quite well know that XI actually had choice for a lot of jobs. I mention red mage, and you focus on RDM in your sig, so clearly you're familiar with that.

This game presently offers you no choice in gearing. There is a best in each tier. There's no choice in stats, there's a best for that too. There's no real choice, for paladin at least, in what abilities you equip and it's not because there can't be, it's because they choices they offer are silly.

Heck, even the Myth-crafted items are linear upgrades from the non-crafted stuff. Nothing is lost, purely gained.

We may look different, but we're all ascending to be precisely the same thing on each job. Worse, there's not even any opportunity to get it wrong. If something is higher tier, you equip it, and the sub-job abilities practically place themselves.

Example: I looked up your character, and not at all to pick apart your choices, but simply that I wear, or have worn every single piece of gear you have save for Hoplite ring (in 100+ AKs, it has never dropped for me lol). That's my point. If you and I had access to the best paladin gear, we would probably be exactly the same.