Please Squeenix, implement blind bids on the markets...

[Alberel]

IMO the real problem here isn't the market board itself but the fact that when listing items on your retainer you have no immediate means of checking other current listings. A lot of the massive 50% undercutting is coming from lazy players who don't bother to actually check the prices before listing and so use a random figure in their head... this is also why you frequently see listings of crafted goods at less than their material cost, because some people don't bother to check.

The supply and demand concept requires market stability to function properly, and when you have random people pricing goods using arbitrary numbers that have no relation to their actual value you have zero stability.

[zenmetsu]

IMO the real problem here isn't the market board itself but the fact that when listing items on your retainer you have no immediate means of checking other current listings. A lot of the massive 50% undercutting is coming from lazy players who don't bother to actually check the prices before listing and so use a random figure in their head... this is also why you frequently see listings of crafted goods at less than their material cost, because some people don't bother to check.

Wrong on both counts. When I undercut by 50%, I know exactly what I am doing. I'm selling my shit for a price that I consider to be worthwhile.

How is a blind bid auction house system going to fix this? How is it going to determine which item sells. Let us assume that 2 HQ Whatchamacallits are on the market, one at 50K and one at 75K. The history shows 80K as the average price. A player bids 79K and wins an item. Which one sold? Do you prioritize based on lowest price? If so, my 50K item just sold and your 75K listing collects dust. If someone decides to start bidding at 40K and increasing at 500gil per bid, they'll STILL end up buying my 50K item before your 75K listing.

The "right price" is the price at which the item will sell while still meeting the demands of the seller. Period. When was the last time you walked into a store to buy something and got pissed off because the price was too low? Exactly...

[Hawklaser]

Wrong on both counts. When I undercut by 50%, I know exactly what I am doing. I'm selling my shit for a price that I consider to be worthwhile.

The "right price" is the price at which the item will sell while still meeting the demands of the seller. Period. When was the last time you walked into a store to buy something and got pissed off because the price was too low? Exactly...

And is that 50% undercut the minimum price you would want for the item? Also why would you drop it by 50% when you could often achieve better results by trying 85% first? While you may see it as worthwhile, you also give yourself no wiggle room to account for people that further undercut you. Stores do the same thing, it is actually rather rare that they are not making a profit off of even their sale items, and when they do loose profit on an item on sale, they are trying to get you into their store to buy more than just that one item. When was the last time you found drastic price differences on an item for sale by businesses in the real world outside of sales?

[Cairdeas]

And is that 50% undercut the minimum price you would want for the item? Also why would you drop it by 50% when you could often achieve better results by trying 85% first? While you may see it as worthwhile, you also give yourself no wiggle room to account for people that further undercut you. Stores do the same thing, it is actually rather rare that they are not making a profit off of even their sale items, and when they do loose profit on an item on sale, they are trying to get you into their store to buy more than just that one item. When was the last time you found drastic price differences on an item for sale by businesses in the real world outside of sales?

Time lost waiting for an item to sell at a higher price is TIME LOST.

[Hawklaser]

Time lost waiting for an item to sell at a higher price is TIME LOST.

Time is valuable, but you are not really loosing time when listing something closer to its current value unless of course you are trying to move a ridiculous amount of item in say 5 hours. Also by drastically dropping the price of an item you are devaluing not only the item, but also the time needed to make or obtain said item. So really if you are loosing time waiting on an item to sell, you must not be doing anything else in that period either.

might have... seriously, this is why contractions should be banned.

anyhoo... if someone is willing to farm or craft an item day in and day out and sell it for 10K, then that is their decision. As long as someone is willing to provide the market with that product for 10K, any asking price that is higher is going to be rejected by the consumers until the supplier is no longer able to meet the demand.

I'll go fix that just for you.

Yeah it is their decision to do so, but more often than not, a decision made in haste is a poor one. And the main reason most undercut is due to being impatient and wanting their gil an hour in the past. The problem with most massive undercutting is that it will often snowball because most people don't consider a larger period of time, as it can easily make what was just undercut on worthless for a prolonged period of time. Now if you are trying to drive out your competition for a market, that is a totally different ball of wax.

[zenmetsu]

Yeah it is their decision to do so, but more often than not, a decision made in haste is a poor one. And the main reason most undercut is due to being impatient and wanting their gil an hour in the past. The problem with most massive undercutting is that it will often snowball because most people don't consider a larger period of time, as it can easily make what was just undercut on worthless for a prolonged period of time. Now if you are trying to drive out your competition for a market, that is a totally different ball of wax.

The only decisions made in haste are people that just blindly charge the same rate as everyone else. Oh wait, undercutting by 1gil is OK, I forgot. Oh wait, someone else came along and undercut by another 1gil... then another... and another... SHIT, now the market price is 5 gil less than what you originally listed it for, better go re-list it. 2 hours have passed, you go to check the market, the price is 10gil lower now because of people dropping the price by 1gil at a time. Hmm... see a trend? THE PRICE IS TOO DAMNED HIGH.

You aren't getting it. If people are trying to sell an item for 20k gil, and I can be happy with 10k, why would I sell it for 20k? We only have 20 slots on our retainers after all. So while you are trying to sell 5-6 items for 20k gil, i'm selling 20 of them 10k each. By time my stuff sells, i've made/gathered more and replenish my retainer with new stock. Fast forward 5 hours, I've emptied my retainer 3 times, sold 60*20k = 1,200k gil, and you've sold zero. I go off and do something else or log out, the price creeps back up in the absence of my supply and maybe, just maybe, you manage to sell a few before I log in and start at it again.

I *have* driven you, the competition, out of the market. You refuse to lower your price because selling for my price is "not worth it" in your eyes. In actuality, trying to sell for "your price" is what is "not worth it".

34,817,220... it represents an amount of something that I have, that you likely would love to have. If the corresponding number for your character is greater than this, then congratulations. If it is lower than this, then you probably should not be telling me about economics within this game. I went there... at great peril of looking like a douche, but sometimes people need a reality check.

[Hawklaser]

The only decisions made in haste are people that just blindly charge the same rate as everyone else. Oh wait, undercutting by 1gil is OK, I forgot. Oh wait, someone else came along and undercut by another 1gil... then another... and another... SHIT, now the market price is 5 gil less than what you originally listed it for, better go re-list it. 2 hours have passed, you go to check the market, the price is 10gil lower now because of people dropping the price by 1gil at a time. Hmm... see a trend? THE PRICE IS TOO DAMNED HIGH.

You aren't getting it. If people are trying to sell an item for 20k gil, and I can be happy with 10k, why would I sell it for 20k? We only have 20 slots on our retainers after all. So while you are trying to sell 5-6 items for 20k gil, i'm selling 20 of them 10k each. By time my stuff sells, i've made/gathered more and replenish my retainer with new stock. Fast forward 5 hours, I've emptied my retainer 3 times, sold 60*20k = 1,200k gil, and you've sold zero. I go off and do something else or log out, the price creeps back up in the absence of my supply and maybe, just maybe, you manage to sell a few before I log in and start at it again.

I *have* driven you, the competition, out of the market. You refuse to lower your price because selling for my price is "not worth it" in your eyes. In actuality, trying to sell for "your price" is what is "not worth it".

34,817,220... it represents an amount of something that I have, that you likely would love to have. If the corresponding number for your character is greater than this, then congratulations. If it is lower than this, then you probably should not be telling me about economics within this game. I went there... at great peril of looking like a douche, but sometimes people need a reality check.

First off, 35 million gil on a Legacy server is no impressive feat, considering plenty of people on Legacy servers started out XIV:ARR with 10M in gil not to mention other items. Second off, it does not take a large amount of gil to get how economics works, more often than not instead of making a massive bankroll of gil, I get what I need then continue doing other things.

Only time I would complain about an item being dropped by 1 gil increments is if said item was only worth 10-20gil to begin with, and at that point may as well just start vendoring it unless selling 40 stacks in the time it takes to get 40 more. People have not driven me out of the markets I choose to participate in, I actually do very well in the markets I am in, I just know better than to screw up an off market I may need to return to in the future. I take a very patient approach to getting to the correct market price as there is no way to know that without participating in the market for a while. If an item is not selling, I will adjust the price down provided the market is not currently being crashed, and if I can't keep them in stock I adjust upwards slowly. There is usually very little reason to drop a price of something by over 50% unless it has not sold in over a week or two outside of impatience.

I also don't blindly charge the same as other people, I use the market history a lot. It's actually how I make most of the gil I do when I need it. After all I'd rather waste a little time learning a market then blindly picking what to sell.

As to you being happy selling at half price, you could likely have even more gil if you would have sold closer to what the market price was. I would not be surprised if most of the people buying your half price stuff is turning around and reselling it, all you did was save them time unless you flood the market to the point your price sticks.

Ding! You are unwilling to do the work that I will do for the pay that I am willing to accept. As long as you are still trying to sell the same product as I, you are a threat. You will either undercut me, or list at the same price and possibly take my sales. In the case of crafting, you will be buying up the materials that I need, and thus, increasing the cost of those materials. In the case of mob drops, like fleece/hides/meat you are competing for kills. It isn't always about undercutting.

It is actually really easy to spot attempts like that, and those I don't mind. As have a few spots planning to do that soon as the free transfers are over. I actually do a lot of things much cheaper than MB, but I don't use the MB for those in the interest of preserving multiple sources of income.

[zenmetsu]

And is that 50% undercut the minimum price you would want for the item? Also why would you drop it by 50% when you could often achieve better results by trying 85% first? While you may see it as worthwhile, you also give yourself no wiggle room to account for people that further undercut you. Stores do the same thing, it is actually rather rare that they are not making a profit off of even their sale items, and when they do loose profit on an item on sale, they are trying to get you into their store to buy more than just that one item. When was the last time you found drastic price differences on an item for sale by businesses in the real world outside of sales?

The 50% undercut is not the minimum price that I would want. Hell, some of the stuff I would sell for 20% of the market rate. I sell for a price that I feel compensates me for the time/effort that I spent acquiring the item. Could I just sell for 85%? Sure! It would probably not sell as fast, and where do you draw the line on "legitimate"? 85%? 80%? 75%? See where I am going?

It's the same damned thing in the real world, with the libtards saying that the rich aren't taxed enough. How much should the rich be taxed? 50%? 80%? 99.9%? The problem is jealousy, and the answer is "tax them so much that they have less money than I do"... and the answer is incorrect.

Usually I sell for a price halfway between my desired minimum and the market price. If people undercut me, oh well, I can re-list.

As for profit, exactly how much do you think it costs me per item when I mine/harvest/fish something up? Think about it long and hard.

[Hawklaser]

The 50% undercut is not the minimum price that I would want. Hell, some of the stuff I would sell for 20% of the market rate. I sell for a price that I feel compensates me for the time/effort that I spent acquiring the item. Could I just sell for 85%? Sure! It would probably not sell as fast, and where do you draw the line on "legitimate"? 85%? 80%? 75%? See where I am going?

Usually I sell for a price halfway between my desired minimum and the market price. If people undercut me, oh well, I can re-list.

As for profit, exactly how much do you think it costs me per item when I mine/harvest/fish something up? Think about it long and hard.

I have Miner at 50 along with Alch and Armorer, so I do know the costs when you go get the items yourself. Gear obtainment + Travel + Repairs + Time(both in getting the item, and leveling what it takes to obtain said item). Most raw mats take very little besides time to acquire in bulks. However you actually are not making any profit until said costs are taken care of. Just going to use bought HQ 50 Miner gear to illustrate. Said gear is likely going to cost you about 250,000 gil, to be able to mine whatever you want, start adding your travel costs, repairs, and time and the initial cost to be able to mine said items is actually up there a nice ways. Now if you are crafting items, you also have to take into account what you loose by doing said craft, sure it can cost you very little gil to go gather an item, but are you going to synth something whose end product is worth less than the raw mats it takes to make it? Not if you are smart.

The problem with rampant undercutting is that it destabilizes a market. Making it very hard to justify gathering or crafting said items, because they can loose so much value in day to to the point they are no longer worth the investment to obtain or craft. I am all for cheaper goods, but I am not happy about people constantly devaluing the investments behind the items either.

[zenmetsu]

The problem with rampant undercutting is that it destabilizes a market. Making it very hard to justify gathering or crafting said items, because they can loose so much value in day to to the point they are no longer worth the investment to obtain or craft. I am all for cheaper goods, but I am not happy about people constantly devaluing the investments behind the items either.

Ding! You are unwilling to do the work that I will do for the pay that I am willing to accept. As long as you are still trying to sell the same product as I, you are a threat. You will either undercut me, or list at the same price and possibly take my sales. In the case of crafting, you will be buying up the materials that I need, and thus, increasing the cost of those materials. In the case of mob drops, like fleece/hides/meat you are competing for kills. It isn't always about undercutting.

Blind Bids Yes Please. Undercutting is getting stupid on my server. It's good for some stuff, but things like tome items are selling for super cheap now. Greedy lil kids trying to get gil to buy their titan wins.

You assume too much. Specifically, that a blind bidding system is going to stop people from undercutting. But the Titan bit was humorous. Would be a damned shame if everyone else ended up with their Relic+1s... you'd have a hard time feeling special.