armory system useless? Mythology Cap

[C-croft]

No.

Nothing you can't do as we speak with two characters. I'm just arguing for more flexibility with one character, since it's the design philosophy of this game. However, since in other games people make rerolls to keep on playing once they're done capping their main character, it seems logical, given the philosophy of this game, that they can do with one char what they do with rerolls in other games.


Agreed, it would be bad. I think the 300 myth cap is fine.


Why is it "bad"? You don't like the name "Shiyo"? You seem much more of a childish person than him, judging from your generally vindictive tone, and obtuse refusal to even read others' posts.


Short attention span?

Besides, how can you refute what you haven't even taken the time to understand? You don't get my idea, you don't address my remarks but a pre-conception you have on anything else than the current system.


Indeed, you're forced to roll a second character to do that. Again, contradicts the very philosophy of the armory system. I didn't invent this system, I'm just comparing its premise to the factual result.


Thank you, much appreciated. How do you feel about yourself, commenting on things you didn't even read?


That's obvious. It's not bugged. We're arguing it's a bad design that doesn't fulfil its initial premise.


Again, I don't have a problem with said rate.


Says the guys with "lol" in its pseudonym. Also, you should know that childhood is long gone for me.


I agree. Never said otherwise. But you would need to read what I said to know that, of course.


But that choice negates the very freedom of playing all jobs on the same character, which is the very point I'm trying to convey.

Said otherwise: the armory system is supposed to be an alternative to rolling several characters, but factually, it is not, since we still have to choose a "main".

I think you understand all of this pretty well and are just trying to "troll". But you can still prove me wrong by bringing real arguments to the table. Until then, have fun in this game.

Unfortunately, there is no argument... The Devs will not be adjusting this for anyone. People may as well start working on their second characters. In fact 3 hours before servers go down for maintenance. Not trying to be mean, don't take it that way. Also, while you are not explicitly asking for faster tomes, you really are. With the current system capping, and SE's stance on not modifying it, the mere nature of asking tome caps per job increases the rate you gear all of your jobs. While it doesn't speed up your main jobs gearing, it speeds the rest so you could essentially become full AF+1 or relic(still not sure what to call it) all at the same time. This is not how the game was intended per SE. If anything, I support a small cap increase so you could at least speed the gear up for those that do have multiple jobs, but I can't say I support all jobs being able to accrue in the same week.

Another note: Since Coil is possible to complete with a majority of DL and some AK mixed in, AF+Relic is not required in a sense, but a luxury. While it is very nice to have and makes content easier, it is not the entry gear required to get into coil. With that being said, DL would be considered geared with tomes an incentive to push further.

[Dhex]

Riiiiiiiiiiight. Because you know, no gear at all drops from the content they'd be clearing. Or you know, you're never going to reach the point with that ilvl90 job where you can't spend more myth tomes on it because you have all the gear.

I didn't say no gear would drop - I specifically pointed out that even once they've gathered all the gear for the class they're playing - they know those roles best and now they /are/ geared - so what's the motivation for changing their party makeup? If new iL100 gear comes out before they complete their second iL90 set - are they going to use their current iL90 Tank who has experience tanking at high level of difficulty or switch to the other guy's alt Tank who is in iL70 with a few pieces of iL90? For the sake of progressing and figuring out the new content they will continue to use their established setup.

Wasn't the point of the Armoury system to play and enjoy all different classes? Or was it play and enjoy all different classes - except for endgame raiding where gear becomes a significant and determining factor?

At endgame you hit this hiccup:

Why would you intentionally choose to be less effective?

Also, nobody in the history of MMOs ever has been able to bring an alt to a raid.

WP RUN LFM 2x DPS FULL DL RELIC ONLY PLEASE 2/4 <- you're telling me you don't see some version this exact shout all the time while dicking around in Rev Toll?

[itscoreylol]

But that choice negates the very freedom of playing all jobs on the same character, which is the very point I'm trying to convey.

No it doesn't. All this restriction does is make it so you can't be the best of the best of the best sir, on every single job right away. There is nothing stopping you from getting there down the line, but they specifically put this cap in place to GATE THE SPEED AT WHICH PEOPLE WILL ATTAIN ENDGAME GEAR ON THEIR JOBS.

What you're arguing for is just another roundabout way of increasing the speed with which you can acquire gear on multiple jobs. Denying that because it's inconvenient to the point you're trying to convey is just dumb. inb4 another long winded diatribe about how I'm stupid for thinking entitled impatient WoWchildren are wrong.

[Alcyon_Densetsu]

Unfortunately, there is no argument... The Devs will not be adjusting this for anyone.

Well, my crystal ball says the same as yours, apparently. ^^; And I think it's unfortunate, as you say. I just wish they'd reconsider, but I don't even know if our CM's, understaffed as they are, have time to translate the main topics/suggestions on this forum. I don't think so, or perhaps very rarely and partially at best.

I guess I'm just disappointed that, indeed:

People may as well start working on their second characters.

I really thought this game would be one in which rerolls are useless; guess that was just either a PR fluke or a misunderstanding on our part as players. I know if I wanted to play a second job, I'd reroll without a second thought —also, you get to possibly experience a different race, which is always nice in the —typically— long run of a MMO.

Also, while you are not explicitly asking for faster tomes, you really are.

Actually… (and this will probably be my last stance on this "suggestion" of a per-job cap)
I'm all for leaving the "minimum amount of time required to fully gear a job with the best gear" as it is; so technically it's really not asking for faster tomes per se. What I'm asking for, precisely, is to be able to run "parallel jobs" on a single character (which I thought was the premise of the armoury system), rather than running all these jobs on a set of discrete "parallel characters" (aka "rerolls").

You know the most ridiculous thing about that? It's actually not that hard to logout and back in with a couple chars (we do it in every other MMO); it's just that the game is very reroll-unfriendly (since you can't send items from/to your own alts; you'd have to rebuild your whole, much needed, friend list for each char, etc. It all reeks of a very tedious management, not even counting retainers, loot/inventory fragmentation and so on). The biggest issue being that you will have to level up 50+34+26 (main job + main sub-class + secondary sub-class) on each of these characters, making a lot of duplicate classes (read: grind). You'd be WHM 50 on one char, CNJ 34 on another, CNJ 26 on a third… The whole thing isn't a very pleasant perspective. At least you'd avoid FATE'ing your way up to 50 on many classes (since you'd re-run the story and possibly secondary quests, probably taking more time overall but certainly a more enjoyable experience for my tastes), but still… it doesn't seem very well thought over, from a dev POV I mean. It's not smooth, efficient, complementary, there's a lot of forced do-over.

With the current system capping, and SE's stance on not modifying it, the mere nature of asking tome caps per job increases the rate you gear all of your jobs. While it doesn't speed up your main jobs gearing, it speeds the rest so you could essentially become full AF+1 or relic(still not sure what to call it) all at the same time. This is not how the game was intended per SE.

I'm changing my mind on this. I think you're right. Again, the word "unfortunate" comes to mind. The game was clearly not intended to make you play all jobs "equally" on the same character (as in, akin to fusing the traditional "main" with all its "alts" or "rerolls"). It certainly seems that way. I must say it really disappointments me; since I love sandboxes and thought there was a sandbox-horizontal "flavour" to ARR; but clearly the progression in this game is as vertical as can be.

If anything, I support a small cap increase so you could at least speed the gear up for those that do have multiple jobs, but I can't say I support all jobs being able to accrue in the same week.

Obviously, I disagree, but we know that already. The main reason for my being against a raising of the cap being that players usually feel, either personally or socially (peer-pressure, even positively), "obliged" or "forced" (these terms being abused, let's say "feeling a strong incentive") to reach that cap; and I think the current time "required" (again, abusive term, but for the sake of discussion) per week is already enough for a casual player. Perhaps it would be nice to get gils instead of tomes, or at least myths becoming philos, once you're capped, or something equivalent, but then again it's a bandaid for what I consider to be a strictly rigid vertical progression system. Which one may or may not like, that's not the issue, but I think we can all agree ARR does it a well as far as capped/vertical progression goes —a bit too well for my own tastes, but then again I've been spoiled by sandboxes and very flexible "theme parks".

Another note: Since Coil is possible to complete with a majority of DL and some AK mixed in, AF+Relic is not required in a sense, but a luxury. While it is very nice to have and makes content easier, it is not the entry gear required to get into coil. With that being said, DL would be considered geared with tomes an incentive to push further.

While this is perfectly true, I don't think it's a valid argument for or against the current per-char cap system, since obviously —> reroll. To be honest, in most MMO's, the highest gear isn't required to clear the content, rather it is the result of doing so, and a progressively required factor in actually being able to (the classic "gearing-as-you-progress" scheme on which most raids rely).

With that being said, I think we should really listen to Shiyo now and go back to his thread should we wish to discuss this any further.



________
EDIT:

No it doesn't. All this restriction does is make it so you can't be the best of the best of the best sir, on every single job right away. There is nothing stopping you from getting there down the line, but they specifically put this cap in place to GATE THE SPEED AT WHICH PEOPLE WILL ATTAIN ENDGAME GEAR ON THEIR JOBS.

What you're arguing for is just another roundabout way of increasing the speed with which you can acquire gear on multiple jobs. Denying that because it's inconvenient to the point you're trying to convey is just dumb. inb4 another long winded diatribe about how I'm stupid for thinking entitled impatient WoWchildren are wrong.

Can we agree on the fact that you're not stupid and I'm not entitled, and certainly not impatient?

I have one word for you: reroll. And this "they specifically put this cap in place to GATE THE SPEED AT WHICH PEOPLE WILL ATTAIN ENDGAME GEAR ON THEIR JOBS." becomes a moot point since, obviously, we can workaround it anytime we please. Again, this suggestion of mine doesn't shrink the time required to gear in any way, it just makes it possible to do it on a single char rather than several.

So, clearly, the per-char cap limit pertains to the armory system, not to the game itself. It's an artificial limitation, it doesn't work besides gating 1 job over 9 on a single character, and making the other 8 impossible to gear at the highest level on that character. Which makes one… you know it… reroll!

However, it's a clever way to make people pay the extra $ to be allowed to roll several chars on a single server —and business wise, I think it's shady since it's obfuscated, but brilliant at the same time since they can attract customers with a slightly lower price and hopefully get a good chunk of them (the "hardcore") to eventually pay $1 more. MMO's being social settings, most people will want to play their rerolls with their friends. It's probably fair, too, since after all a hardcore player "costs" more to the company: more support, more server resources (occupied slot), and so on, over the lifespan of the game. Well, nevermind that he makes the game "live" and others do benefit from his presence in group content;, but I'm digressing and I think you hate that, so let's cut it short.

I think we have different tastes (obviously) but we do agree on what the armory/cap system does. I think it's unfortunate, you think it's great, so we should probably leave it at that.

I'm off this topic.

[Aenomaly]

BUT I WANT MOAAAAR RIGHT NEOW MOARRRR, NO TIME TO WAIT I NEED MOARRR COWBELLL.

AENO

[itscoreylol]

herp derp

Why would I want to reroll. I'm fine with things how they are. The only thing I want is more content. Also if it's so easy for you to just level another character, and level all the other classes for the cross class skills you need (the real main reason behind the armory system) maybe you should just do that.

It's not a huge expectation for SE to want players to specialize. I'm guessing you never played XI, where you could multiclass as well but at endgame you didn't have every swinging dick with multiple level 75 jobs wanting sky gear on all his jobs at the same time. That's pretty much tantamount to what you're asking for with these ideas.

[Brises]

IMO, SE knew that the endgame content upon game launch was going to be inadequate to hold peoples interest until 2.1. So the myth cap was established to give people something to work on for several months until they add more content. I would suspect we will see the cap change as more content is added. Besides, there will be more gear and probably different ways to acquire it as well. Before long, myth tomes will probably not be much of an issue.

[Arkista]

Riiiiiiiiiiight. Because you know, no gear at all drops from the content they'd be clearing. Or you know, you're never going to reach the point with that ilvl90 job where you can't spend more myth tomes on it because you have all the gear. Also, nobody in the history of MMOs ever has been able to bring an alt to a raid.

IDK if FFXI counts but people would bring alts to everything.

EDIT
Also I don't know why people keep thinking Relic gear is BIS for all slots..........

[Keyln]

Frankly, I'm really quite amazed by the lack of awareness of armor sets. I'm going to say this in bold so people can understand.

You are not limited to gearing up one job at a time

There are three options to gearing up to the most powerful armor sets in the game. First off, there's the relic armor, which is bought with Mythology stones. It takes about 10 weeks of myth tombstone grinding (not including getting relic +1 weapon) to get the full armor set for a single job, or about 2 and a half months. This is not including getting the Relic Weapon +1'd, nor getting the relic accessories (which would be about one week extra per).

The second option is the Allagan armor, which is the exact equivalent of Relic armor. Yes, you can get Allagan armor instead of Relic armor, and get almost the exact same stats. This drops from the Binding Coil, and really, the gear requirements for that place is about the same as Titan Hard Mode. Now, there isn't a "time" requirement per say, but there's an element of luck, as getting the armor to drop, and rolling on the armor. But it is possible to get this armor in place of Relic.

The third option is the crafting option. There is armor that can be crafted that's just a bit below the other two pieces of armor, even HQ'ed, but it can be melded. Using the right Materia, it's possible to get the equivalent of the above two armors. It requires a bit of patience, skill, and luck, but you can craft and meld a piece of armor that's the same, if not better, than Relic or Allagan, and it doesn't require setting foot in a dungeon, raid, or primal fight.

So, there you have it folks. Three options in getting the best gear in the game, and there's really no wrong answer here. Played right, you could gear up to five jobs at once.

TL;DR version of above: There's more than one way to gear, and the armory system works fine.

[blowfin]

Alts are only an option if you're a no lifer really. For the vast majority there's plenty to do every week between Coil, Capping Myth and leveling other classes.

Basically the idea of Myth cap per job is a terrible idea, it's counter intuitive to how the armory system works and will only benefit those who have much higher than average play times. I don't think it's understood that a lot of players simply don't want to have to cap any more than 300 tomes per week. Also, the HUGE problem is that you'd be restricted to farming for myth on the job that you went into the dungeon as. There's not really any way around that, it would certainly be locked to the job, if they could even implement the idea.

If you can level another character and have it ready for coil in 2 days then good for you, most people don't heave the bandwidth to do that. It's actually a perfectly fine solution if you find yourself running out of content every week. However, there's not much from stopping you doing this on your main too, at least to the point where the job is ready for T1-4. Beyond that, then yeah, it's pretty clear that we're not supposed to have multiple jobs decked out in iLvL90 gear. For the moment I'm perfectly fine with that notion.