Questioning the design of TP

[Shaiandra]

A few things bother me about TP.

Firstly, melee can run out of TP and can only restore it with Invigorate or a Bard. Compared to casters, THM and ACN have ways to refill MP, but PGL can't sustain itself without another class skill. Even then, it's more prone to run dry than a THM.

Sprint uses all TP. You'd think melee need more mobility than ranged, but it's melee who get drained by it.

But mainly, TP isn't the main restriction to much aside from AoEs. Even if you had infinite TP, you'd never spam one attack (except maybe LNC AoE). The combo/form system, (de)buff durations, CDs, etc. already give you a varied rotation; there's no one best skill to spam.

I feel that all TP does (regarding PGL and LNC) is limit the use of AoE and Sprint. If you don't use those, your single-target dps can last forever, iff you have LNC22, and you may as well not have a resource.

If I imagine a world where PGLs and LNCs have 0 TP costs, I actually can't see major drawbacks...

Thoughts?

[Gungan]

AOE is very inefficient for everyone, including BLMs. Yeah, it's nice to be able to sprint, but I feel like my AOE is weaker and clearly less efficient than my single target ability. It seems to me that single target focus is almost always a stronger way to go unless you're hitting weak swarms like the beetles in WP.

[Kevee]

Your single target DPS can't last forever, only if you're conserving by using non-optimal rotations.

[Shaiandra]

Your single target DPS can't last forever, only if you're conserving by using non-optimal rotations.

Fair; but if that's the case, doesn't that make TP classes even worse?

If I'm not mistaken THM doesn't have a long-term resource. Their MP bar goes down and up and down and up, so it's more of a short-term resource that determines when you can/should use spell X and when you can't. So aside from cooldown phases, a THM can maintain sustained DPS for 10 minutes just as well as it can for 5 minutes.

Whereas PGL and LNC have a long-term resource which will eventually deplete, even if you use your only one TP restorer and never Sprint or AoE? Does that seem balanced?..

[Kevee]

Fair; but if that's the case, doesn't that make TP classes even worse?

If I'm not mistaken THM doesn't have a long-term resource. Their MP bar goes down and up and down and up, so it's more of a short-term resource that determines when you can/should use spell X and when you can't. So aside from cooldown phases, a THM can maintain sustained DPS for 10 minutes just as well as it can for 5 minutes.

Whereas PGL and LNC have a long-term resource which will eventually deplete, even if you use your only one TP restorer and never Sprint or AoE? Does that seem balanced?..

THM/BLM is the only class/job that's special, and really, has an infinite resource of gain and decay.

All other DoM classes are subject to long-term mana management.

THM's damage overall does take MP and efficiency into account. Your damage tanks considerably when you're outside of Astral Fire so the more times you have to swap over to Umbral Ice the less overall damage you are doing. It adds up in longer fights.

Anyways, there is no question that the team is doing their best to ensure that fights are balanced so everyone can participate. They will likely not have any sort of AOE heavy battles if it would leave melee totally useless. This was a major problem in 1.0 that they have, I feel, mostly fixed.

Either way, if higher tier fights continue to require a lot of movement, BLMs will have a much harder time than melee do as they have to move around a lot and will keep getting interrupted.

It's an infinite continuing cycle, though.

No other class/job can do that. Once they run low/empty on their resource, they have to STOP or greatly SLOW DOWN what they're doing.

Also, turn 4 is fairly AoE heavy but has been cleared with 3 melees/1 BRD. Paeon does wonders.

[EasymodeX]

From a thousand foot view, sure there are balance problems with the TP mechanic.

From a practical perspective, it's like this:

1. Fights never last for 15 minutes without mechanics disengages where you sit idle regenerating TP without spending it.
2. DRGs and MNKs in particular, with BRDs sortof, are "bad" at AOEs in the sense that they cannot sustain AOE DPS for longer fights or phases.
3. BLMs and SMNs are "good" at AOEs in that they can sustain AOE DPS without damaging their single target DPS in longer fights.

Shrug?

Edit: In other words the imbalances don't matter a whole heck of a lot until you hit specific content constraints that will more or less break TP-reliant DPS classes -- specifically very long fights with a lot of high-throughput AOE damage requirements (e.g. everyone has to AOE).

[Shaiandra]

It's true it may not be breaking the game at the moment, but it sorta bugs me just knowing that there are obvious imbalances, some of which may bite us in the future. (Although from what I'm reading on these forums, melee are already having trouble even not considering this...) What if they eventually do want to add epic long fights with some AoE heavy segments?

And how do you think PvP will go if that's ever added, and melee can't use Sprint without gimping themselves?

I feel it's a poor system and even if it may not be impacting us tooo much at the moment (although being able to Sprint freely would be sweet..), I still feel it should be changed at some point...

[EasymodeX]

Well, the content would have to be more than "AOE heavy", it would have to require so much AOE that the melee need to AOE spam *a lot* (not just a little) as well.

The whole sprint TP thing is pretty funny. For normal situations it's irrelevant, but as you say PvP will be stupid*.

* FF14 was never designed for PvP and anyone who has any hope for a coherent degree of balance and quality PvP is pretty delusional, etc.

[Shaiandra]

If that's the case that TP doesn't really run out in practice unless you have to AoE a ridiculous amount.... then does the resource only exist to gate Sprint for Disciples of War?

(For the record I would't care if PvP were to be added, but eh, I'm keeping my mind open for whatever directions the game may go in.)

[EasymodeX]

I don't know if there's any finely-tuned design intent to "gate" sprint for DOW in particular versus DOM.

Seems like it's just how it ended up.

Personally I think it'd be about as fair to drain all the mana on a DOM class ... shrug.