An all-too-common mistake that tanks make.

[Kitru]

Thanks for the straw-man, Captain Argue.

That doesn't mean what you think it means. A straw man argument is restating your argument in simplistic terms so as to make it easier to take down. I specifically addressed a single portion of your argument that was explicitly wrong. That's a legitimate debate strategy because it undercuts the foundation of your argument by tackling it directly. A SMN dropping Shadow Flare before you start to pull (since they're not going to be able to AoE before you get to a target because, as previously mentioned, it requires that they DoT cleave) should not be a problem if you're a competent tank for the reasons I listed. You specifically stated that the SMN dropping that AoE made your life more difficult because you couldn't control the mobs as effectively; if you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd have no problem controlling the mobs.

[Ehayte]

Snip

A. I do not have issues holding aggro, and I never said that I did, I was simply responding to the OP's concerns, particularly concerning the first portion of a group dungeon encounter, and defending tanks who may not have perfect positioning all the time.

B. A straw-man argument is not just "Simplifying" an argument, it is doing EXACTLY what you said. Taking a small piece of what I said and saying that my entire argument is invalid because of a flaw or dependency in that portion of the argument. i.e. you are beating up a "straw-man" look-a-like of the main argument. In this case, you are saying that the SMN AE aggro spell should not be providing enough aggro to pull mobs off me ON THEIR WAY BACK TO ME AFTER A TAG. Uhh....


You are also missing the point that ANY form of aggro is going to make those mobs go haywire was they are on their way to me. A single point of damage would take that mob off its path to me, and onto the producer of that damage. As such, the miniscule damage done by the SMN AE + 20%, will still make the mobs scatter in an manner which I would not find optimal.

So let's forget all that, and say the SMN AE doesn't cause ANY aggro. Fine, replace it with a BLM nuking, a Bard shooting an arrow, and Dragoon throwing his spear, a WHM casting regen, a SCH casting Stoneskin, whatever you want, and the main point of my argument stays in tact.

[Kitru]

B. A straw-man argument is not just "Simplifying" an argument, it is doing EXACTLY what you said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument

Read up on that. It's not just simplifying. Using a straw man is to "create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position." I didn't replace your proposition with something superficially similar. I directly contradicted your point about SMN opening early and making it hard for you to position.

The entire basis of your argument was that positioning is difficult because you have issues keeping control and you brought up the SMN without referencing anything else. Keeping control is a non-issue if you know what you're doing, and, if you're having issues getting enemies to group up around you so that you can dump at least 1 AoE on them by the time a SMN finishes a 3 second cast and the animation finishes resolving, you're don't know what you're doing. Tanking is not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be. AoE tanking is not complicated: Shield Lob/Tomahawk, either wait for them to run to you (or, if your healer threw a HoT or a heal on you while you were running up, run past you), and then Flash/Overpower. Do that and you've got no problems whatsoever. At worst, your healers takes a hit or two to the face (which will hopefully teach them not to do that). Even when I'm running with total pugs, I don't have an issue with this kind of stuff because I simply don't give them the opportunity to screw up my pulls.

Furthermore, your argument that it's somehow difficult to get all enemies facing you without spinning in a circle is similarly ludicrous. You don't have to constantly spin enemies to keep them facing you; get on one side of em and they'll naturally form up in front of you, no need to spin at all.

You predicate your entire point about blocking not being as valuable as it's assumed to be by saying that (1) aggro is problematic which causes (2) problems with positioning. Your first supposition is wrong for numerous previously mentioned reasons. The second isn't even a problem unless you're acting like an idiot.

That's not a superficially similar argument. That *is* your argument.

[Ehayte]

You just don't want to let go of the stupid SMN thing, do you? And you can argue the straw-man definition to death, but you did create a superficial and unequivalent argument to mine by zeroing in a particular detail intended as an example (admittedly poorly described as such, and apologized for, apparently to no avail) and changing the nature of my point to the degree that it hinged solely on that example.

Then you accused me of sucking for not being able to set aggro in 3 seconds. I can do that, I promise you, I am at least a competent tank - I was, again, giving an example of an ability that could potentially pull aggro.

Again, for the second time, I say let's change the SMN example to a bard shooting an arrow at the mob I didn't shield lob.

I think that blocking/parrying is very important, and I set mobs up thusly in normal circumstances. However, some DPS players (in my experience) will ALWAYS cause some disruption in the "normal" routine.

1 - My supposition is only wrong if A. You only ever group with SMN DPS, or DPS that waits for you to get there, and B. You never have to pull anything a distance greater than however many yalms it takes to travel in SMN GCD + Animation time.
2 - There are lots of idiots, and I still stand by my sentiment that 10-20% reduction in outgoing dps is more impactful than a 6.15% increase in incoming dps on trash pulls.

[Kraggy]

That doesn't mean what you think it means. A straw man argument is restating your argument in simplistic terms so as to make it easier to take down.

Actually it does mean what he thinks it means, it's YOU that doesn't understand it:

A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[3][4] This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged, emotional issues. In those cases the false victory is often loudly or conspicuously celebrated.

It does NOT 'simplify' an argument it replaces it by another, because the person using it can't actually refute the original one.