Matsui's battle system information - Next week!

[Physic]

What you think is a good idea for balancing and what the actual calculations turn out to be are two separate things that much is evident.

Adjusting the stat calculations is required and the fact that you cannot see how shrinking the stat pools correlates with auto-attack shows that you alone do not understand. What was said was the stat pools are too large and stretched thin. Your diminishing results start at 110 onward which makes your stat modifiers viable even at 80. Players can divide their stats up evenly and only be marginally less stat wise than another player in the enhancements they give.

This is a problem and was said to be addressed with the battle system. Shrinking the pool, or as they put it, "simplifying the formulas" would make the stats more potent, but will leave you with choices to fit your play style. This is aside from skill. FFXIV, as of right now, is pretty easy to float through and doesn't separate the men from the boys. If you call skill timing your attacks and moving around mobs to avoid cone AOE, well, alright.

I think skill is a combination of figuring out builds and your idea of play strategy and skills. So do not think I'm totally on a different page than you.

I am saying that most players who want auto attack seem to prefer the statistical manipulation IE stats gear skill choices etc with a few interjected reaction skills, like stun. Im not putting a value on that,

Im saying the current system revolves more about reaction and skill, and choosing when to do what. Compare this to ffxi, if you had someones account, and macros set, it would be fairly easy to tell them how to play, for a DD/tank extremely easy. Most of the planning went into your gear set ups, macroing, choice of subjobs.

This game has a bit of both, but i definately think they designed it skewed to skill choice and player interaction, rather than gear, most gear only gives you a modest boost, and what skills/traits combinations you choose, as well as how well you can take advantage of your jobs strengths is the dominant factor. Like i said, it would not be easy for me to explain my take on how to take advantage of pugs abilities in this game,

whereas in FFXI it was more about explaining gear choices, haste versus str and attack and dbl attack etc, but actually explaining battle; /assist build tp use best weapon skill repeat. This game involves positioning, stamina choices, short time buffs, more selection of abilities etc.

timing attacks to avoid cone, timing attacks to make best use of your buffs, timing your buffs and skills to make best use of your stamina at the right times, or have stamina available when you need to do a string of attacks or skills. figuring out when its best to do BR, managing your cooldowns to maximize your powers. Im not claiming its street fighter, but its way more complex than FFXI for melee/tanks anyhow in the sense of the skill it takes to do it well.

Im not using skill as a universal word for being good, im using skill as a word to describe having to react and use techniques and various abilities to a greater effect.
Planning and intellegience is more in the realms of what skills to use, and how usefull they are, even with the same knowledge different players are better at execution. I think some people would prefer more planning and intellegience and less execution, annnnd some peops just want easy mode but thats a different story.

also keep in mind im not talking about the easymode leves and behests we have now, im talking about real difficult fights, versus more complex mobs, and possibly groups of monsters. Back when i first played, and people didnt know everything about everything you had to learn leves, adapt to the mobs skills, and deal with multiple mobs at the same time. When exploring tam tara for exp, fighting high level bones, zombies, efts, eyes, pigs etc, (like +12-18 levels higher than you and the claiming system didnt block you on skill gain for aoe) you actually saw big differences in results using all your skills well.


and after that wall of text, im also saying i think they are going to take it more into a simulation type game for battle, and less on a skill based battle system. By making stats and gear more dominant, thats one step in that direction, by taking out actively choosing when to do everything, and most likely reducing the dominance of stamina, thats another step in that direction. So essentially as to what to expect with the battle system, probably a slower paced (not the speed of attacks, but the amount of qualitative input from the player) but more simulation and more overall planning of your charachters/stats/gear roles. As well as more rigid roles in combat.

But i could be wrong, they could come up with something crazy, but its not what i expect form what they have said.

[kukurumei]

I am saying that most players who want auto attack seem to prefer the statistical manipulation IE stats gear skill choices etc with a few interjected reaction skills, like stun. Im not putting a value on that,

Im saying the current system revolves more about reaction and skill, and choosing when to do what. Compare this to ffxi, if you had someones account, and macros set, it would be fairly easy to tell them how to play, for a DD/tank extremely easy. Most of the planning went into your gear set ups, macroing, choice of subjobs.

This game has a bit of both, but i definately think they designed it skewed to skill choice and player interaction, rather than gear, most gear only gives you a modest boost, and what skills/traits combinations you choose, as well as how well you can take advantage of your jobs strengths is the dominant factor. Like i said, it would not be easy for me to explain my take on how to take advantage of pugs abilities in this game,

whereas in FFXI it was more about explaining gear choices, haste versus str and attack and dbl attack etc, but actually explaining battle; /assist build tp use best weapon skill repeat. This game involves positioning, stamina choices, short time buffs, more selection of abilities etc.

timing attacks to avoid cone, timing attacks to make best use of your buffs, timing your buffs and skills to make best use of your stamina at the right times, or have stamina available when you need to do a string of attacks or skills. figuring out when its best to do BR, managing your cooldowns to maximize your powers. Im not claiming its street fighter, but its way more complex than FFXI for melee/tanks anyhow in the sense of the skill it takes to do it well.

Im not using skill as a universal word for being good, im using skill as a word to describe having to react and use techniques and various abilities to a greater effect.
Planning and intellegience is more in the realms of what skills to use, and how usefull they are, even with the same knowledge different players are better at execution. I think some people would prefer more planning and intellegience and less execution, annnnd some peops just want easy mode but thats a different story.

also keep in mind im not talking about the easymode leves and behests we have now, im talking about real difficult fights, versus more complex mobs, and possibly groups of monsters. Back when i first played, and people didnt know everything about everything you had to learn leves, adapt to the mobs skills, and deal with multiple mobs at the same time. When exploring tam tara for exp, fighting high level bones, zombies, efts, eyes, pigs etc, (like +12-18 levels higher than you and the claiming system didnt block you on skill gain for aoe) you actually saw big differences in results using all your skills well.


and after that wall of text, im also saying i think they are going to take it more into a simulation type game for battle, and less on a skill based battle system. By making stats and gear more dominant, thats one step in that direction, by taking out actively choosing when to do everything, and most likely reducing the dominance of stamina, thats another step in that direction. So essentially as to what to expect with the battle system, probably a slower paced (not the speed of attacks, but the amount of qualitative input from the player) but more simulation and more overall planning of your charachters/stats/gear roles. As well as more rigid roles in combat.

But i could be wrong, they could come up with something crazy, but its not what i expect form what they have said.

That's exactly the reason why FF14 battle system isn't working.

You are envisioning a full manual deluxe plate of tactical maneuvering. But in reality, you're just too stuck on l33t possibility where no one cares or writes scripts for.

The tactical alternative to "why bother" is supreme. In all your 360 tacticle decision and inputs nets you 100more hp, and 10 seconds shorter kill time. My 11111121 is "good enough". I have to heal 10 seconds later, but it beats repeating the alternative for 3 hours.

This is why people don't understand MMOs especially PvE high fantasy MMOs like FF. L33t is crap because the game is designed to be non competitive, friendly, and repetitive.

This isn't a fighting game where achieve maximum "high level" playing and constant "raising the bar" type fights. It's a MMO of repetitive adventuring. Until people get that, they will never understand why FF14 is depopulating into a ghost town.

Everything you explained won't work. Because not enough people will have the incentive to do that(not to mention it's no different if you're repeating it over and over anyway), and developers have no incentive to write monster scenarios for that. (In fact they can't. This isn't an action game, AI are dumb, and monsters have to be aplenty and long lasting).

This is why we're moving to a Auto-attack system and probably a lot of things to revolve around that.

We're not driving manual cars anymore because no one wants to do that for 8hrs a day-every day. Of course pre-determined Public transportation isn't efficient either so, that's why we have AT cars on the road.

[Physic]

That's exactly the reason why FF14 battle system isn't working.

You are envisioning a full manual deluxe plate of tactical maneuvering. But in reality, you're just too stuck on l33t possibility where no one cares or writes scripts for.

The tactical alternative to "why bother" is supreme. In all your 360 tacticle decision and inputs nets you 100more hp, and 10 seconds shorter kill time. My 11111121 is "good enough". I have to heal 10 seconds later, but it beats repeating the alternative for 3 hours.

This is why people don't understand MMOs especially PvE high fantasy MMOs like FF. L33t is crap because the game is designed to be non competitive, friendly, and repetitive.

This isn't a fighting game where achieve maximum "high level" playing and constant "raising the bar" type fights. It's a MMO of repetitive adventuring. Until people get that, they will never understand why FF14 is depopulating into a ghost town.

Everything you explained won't work. Because not enough people will have the incentive to do that(not to mention it's no different if you're repeating it over and over anyway), and developers have no incentive to write monster scenarios for that. (In fact they can't. This isn't an action game, AI are dumb, and monsters have to be aplenty and long lasting).

This is why we're moving to a Auto-attack system and probably a lot of things to revolve around that.

We're not driving manual cars anymore because no one wants to do that for 8hrs a day-every day. Of course pre-determined Public transportation isn't efficient either so, that's why we have AT cars on the road.

so essentially what your saying is leveling in an mmo should be designed to be easy and not having much interaction, because a lot of interaction is tedious.

I can see your op, it is not unvalid, but i disagree.

The things i talked about in my post already occured in the game, and you were rewarded for it. This is what the game was evolving into before the sp nerf. You fought harder fights in more dangerous areas, because higher level monsters gave you better exp, you tried to avoid the aoe attacks because when a monster is high level, they do a lot of damage, and can kill you. You manage your stamina and choose between a provoke or a strike because if you choose wrong you may lose agro, and the monster may die.
You use aoe tanking abilities as a marauder because if you dont get hate, the healer will die, and you will probably be next. You offtank the other puk in the group because the marauder can keep enough hate, and tring dodge, or take two flip kicks may kill you, or the healer. All this is my adventures when the game started, its not imaginings of what could be, its really what we did, and we got exp for it.

A good system, well created has depth, you can get by at a low level, or you can take it deeper, and be a little better. while people who just want to get to work, and drive because its the easiest way want automatics, most people who actually enjoy driving, and do it in there free time, or as a hobby prefer manual, because they have more control, and its a more entertaining experience. They can get slightly better performance by involving themselves more.

So basically it comes down to a clash of what is battle in an MMO, is it a means to an ends, or a joy in and of itself. I can see why there may be opposing schools of thought on this. In honesty what they should probably have done, is created two battle systems, one which is simple, involving only minute complexity or involvement, for the people to whom battle is just a means to the end of progression and gear, and another system for those who want to get in depth and have more control over the battle, who actually want entertaining battles. Because i dont really think that more people want it one way or the other, i think its split fairly evenly.

[Mack]

I am saying that most players who want auto attack seem to prefer the statistical manipulation IE stats gear skill choices etc with a few interjected reaction skills, like stun. Im not putting a value on that,

Yes, I agree with this because I'm that type of player. I enjoy my action games and action RPG games but I like my MMOs to be more strategy driven, think then act rather than act and think later which is what the game is right now.

[Physic]

Yes, I agree with this because I'm that type of player. I enjoy my action games and action RPG games but I like my MMOs to be more strategy driven, think then act rather than act and think later which is what the game is right now.

i prefer a mixture of both, but id definately want the battles to be entertaining if im going to have to it a lot, and i prefer to have active manipulation rather than sitting and waiting, like in ffxi, i prefered playing monk/thf to monk/war because although monk war was quite powerful, it basically involved just putting on buffs and letting the computer play, whereas on monk/thf i had to move more often, and be aware of my position, and the hate of various parties, it was basically more active, even if only by a little bit.

Its a style choice, i think they need to find a way to appeal to both people.

[Vesperia]

i prefer a mixture of both, but id definately want the battles to be entertaining if im going to have to it a lot, and i prefer to have active manipulation rather than sitting and waiting, like in ffxi, i prefered playing monk/thf to monk/war because although monk war was quite powerful, it basically involved just putting on buffs and letting the computer play, whereas on monk/thf i had to move more often, and be aware of my position, and the hate of various parties, it was basically more active, even if only by a little bit.

Its a style choice, i think they need to find a way to appeal to both people.

I agree with you, but appealing to both is impossible.