Since there is no game feedback forum; Idea: "Adjusting Enmity for certain jobs"

[Steeled]

Edit, to clarify: The scholar I mention in my example below was not playing scholar by-the-book (good scholar pun, eh?). Technically, he shouldn't have been dps'ing as much as he was but I was geared enough he didn't need to heal me much, and he was geared enough, + pet, that his heals did well enough.

Healers healing rarely ever pull enmity off of me, especially scholars. In this case, the scholar was pulling enmity because of the dualist nature of the Arcanist class + gear + the enmity he did generate from heals.

Let me preface this with the statement that I understand how certain classes play and that, to maximize their dps, they need to play a certain way. Some jobs, like summoner, it really hurts them to hold back.

I also have no complaints about simply being out-played, or more likely, because I am a good tank, out-geared (those relic +1s are really vicious )

I also realize that Quelling Strikes is available. It seems that geared bards save this for bosses, or should.

Bard also presents and opportunity for "bad play", they can have shot the target and applied strong damage before the GCD from shield lob (+ off GCD circle of Scorn) is complete. This, let's be honest, is poor play. You can always at least let the mobs get to the tank, the 3 additional seconds of that pull will not hurt anyone, not remotely.

- - -

I am calling on SE to fix this, and here's why: We don't have gearing options. There is one very rigid ladder of gear. In other games, if I needed more enmity, I equipped more enmity. In more trivial content, I equipped DPS gear, but the defense change of DPS gearing in this game is HUGE. In other games, there are typically a few pieces at each level. That is not the case here.

While I realize people are clearing dungeons with setups like 1 mage / 3 dps, the very fact they're able to do this is A) because they know the entire group exceptionally outgears the content, and B) they work together. They sleep pulls, they ironically play properly and extra-cautiously. Such methods wouldn't work if the summoner was was tanking half a pull while the blm was tanking his main target (I know that dots tic while slept, and that is hugely advantageous to such groups).

- - -

One of the problems is simply that different dps expect different things from you. Some DPS jobs have different ways they can play, depending on the size of the pull, or just their preference. BLM and BRD are examples of this, while the others (Summoner, Dragoon, Monk) really only have one way to play. Dragoons and Monks are single target machines--or should be--and Summoners really need to aoe. Their job shines when they aoe.

If I enter a pug with a decently geared summoner and bard, what I'm most likely to encounter is the summoner spreading dots, while the archer will drop his fire-circle, maybe the damage-dealt -10% move, and focus targets. Some will apply dots to different targets, most don't.

What I need to do, is to establish hate for the archer (or monk, dragoon, or blm that favors single target), and I do this by

(BLMs can adapt to the group composition and spread some damage too. Some like to do this anyway. Some don't)

Shield lob primary target, marking it with a <1 >
Circle of scorn, hitting as many as possible (because it's off the GCD) but isn't a whole lot of hate
Flash everything
Fast Blade > Savage Blade . . .
Flash everything
. . . Finish rotation of Rage of Halone'ing that primary target.
I have two options here

• Secondary target: If the Bard isn't riding my single-target hate, I can switch here and Fast Blade > Savage Blade and then Rage of Halone a third target.
• Primary target: If the bard/monk/dragoon is riding my hate here I can Fast Blade > Savage Blade and then Rage of Halone a third target

Flash everything
etc etc.

The summoner isn't playing wrong by spreading his dots, and the single target dps isn't really playing wrong. Watching your hate, and adapting, is a nice trait but I understand wanting trash dead.

The problem is not the summoner.
The problem is not the bard.
The problem is not me, I assure you, I'm in full Darklight and making the best use of my GCDs that I can imagine.

Oddly, and I'm not sure why, I don't have the same issues out of melee that I do out of single-target Bards. Is the non-concern (at all) for positional requirements so vital. I know that melee have to move out of red more frequently, but you can dps and move at the same time.

I'm not sure if bards generate more enmity-per-damage than other DDs, or if it's just that they generate that much more consistent damage than the melee dps.

Summoners, I understand exactly what is going on, Flash generates 1100~ enmity and summoners are generating more than that across targets. Some do much more than that in the few seconds before flash is used again. I can use flash more, but flash is no match for single target dps, and shouldn't be. Flash also costs 1/7 of any paladin's mp. We don't like to abuse, because we have to be able to use it on the next pull. We have riot blade to recover MP, but competing with geared dps, there's not enough opportunity to riot blade the last mob, and riot blade'ing early/mid-pull exacerbates the enmity issue rather than helps.

I'll be honest, the problem became apparent to me when I entered a group with a Relic +1 BLM, Bard, and cleric-stanced Scholar. They were mostly single targeting, while spreading dots. The BLM and Bard were riding my Ifrit's Blade single-target enmity while the healer was bane'ing dots and occasionally he'd pull aoe mobs off of me. I wasn't mad, but I was a bit frustrated.

1 - Gives us an ACTUAL "Taunt" ala every MMORPG in History that had a tank class. As of now, we have NO instant "peel" move that can cover for a mistaken aggro pull. This makes endgame instances with new tanks a forking NIGHTMARE to play with.
Yes we do, that's what Provoke is. In other games, provoke fixates the targets attention on you for a few seconds, or it applies some additional hate. Max Enmity +1 is useful, but a tiny buffer would be nice.

2 - Gives reduced threat to healers. Tossing a 150 point cure spell should not instantly peel a mob off the tank.. ever. At all. FOR ANY REASON.
I don't have threat problems out of smart healers. Healers need to learn to play if they're pulling off every tank. Tanks need to learn to play if they're regularly losing hate to healers.

3 - Puts up a REAL Threat meter. Give %'s, #'s to 100, SOMETHING other then "Oh figure out what color this is and where you are on a hate scale we just made up for giggles."
Are you kidding? It has one, the bars under names show the party's enmity against the target. Numbers wouldn't be any more useful, though I'd love actual numbers, not %, for testing purposes.

4 - Puts in a WARNING of some sort to DPS/Heals when they pass a certain % of hate (Omen Threat Meter anyone?)
This, though. That would be nice.

[Volas]

Welcome to Tanking in FFARR. I got to 50, and ran level 50 dungeons 20 times. I then unequipped my paladin gear, and refuse to re-equip it ever again until SE...

1 - Gives us an ACTUAL "Taunt" ala every MMORPG in History that had a tank class. As of now, we have NO instant "peel" move that can cover for a mistaken aggro pull. This makes endgame instances with new tanks a forking NIGHTMARE to play with.
2 - Gives reduced threat to healers. Tossing a 150 point cure spell should not instantly peel a mob off the tank.. ever. At all. FOR ANY REASON.
3 - Puts up a REAL Threat meter. Give %'s, #'s to 100, SOMETHING other then "Oh figure out what color this is and where you are on a hate scale we just made up for giggles."
4 - Puts in a WARNING of some sort to DPS/Heals when they pass a certain % of hate (Omen Threat Meter anyone?)
5 - ALL OF THE ABOVE.

Having run over 20 dungeons at level 50, it is literally the same thing every instance. No matter how much I toss out that useless "flash", mobs will charge the DPS/Heals for basically standing there. I literally had a mob to 50% total health with the BLM doing nothing.. and ONE Spell from the BLM peeled the mob. (BLM Critical hit = Instant peel. No matter HOW much hate you have built.)

To make matters worse, I've noticed that proximity is also a factor in hate generation/threat. (THIS ONE IS EASY TO PROVE.) Just move away from the mob, have a DPS shoot the mob a few times.. then use Provoke from a distance. Mob will aggro the tank for about 1 second, then turn towards you.. then IMMEDIATELY turn around and go back to hitting the DPS who is no longer attacking. THIS IS INFURIATING BEYOND ALL BELIEF.

Until I see a MASSIVE tank overhaul... my paladin is staying shelved, and believe me, Im not the ONLY tank that thinks this way. In fact, every Paladin I talk too it's the SAME thing. "SE only invented this class cause they needed someone to shield bash on raids... we can't actually tank worth a damn."

It's been said that Yoshi told the developers of this game to "go play WoW and learn something." Apparently - they completely skipped tanking classes in instances, or they are just mentally deficient.... after experiencing the pain that is this game's User Interface.. Im going with the latter.

[Pathetic]

Tank start off aggro pretty weak but what worse healer could generate more threat than tank over with just 1 spell .

[Enkidoh]

You already have all the tools to keep hate on you - you have your enmity meters on the party members' names, so keep a close eye on those. You have Flash, your main enmity generating tool for GLA/PLD. You have weaponskill combos designed to also generate enmity. You have Shield Lob, a ranged attack to pull mobs and get initial hate onto you quickly. You have Provoke, a quick 'get out of jail free' card in case you lose agro to someone else.

These are simple tools designed to be used properly by players to get hate and keep it on them. If you're hoping for a FFXI style Provoke, that's what Flash is, only AoE.

[Amyas]

1 - Gives us an ACTUAL "Taunt" ala every MMORPG in History that had a tank class. As of now, we have NO instant "peel" move that can cover for a mistaken aggro pull.

We already have provoke + tomahawk/shieldlob, not to mention if its really a just 'mistaken' aggro pull then it should be easily rectifiable for a tank to fix with flash and overpower. Now, if you have people that try to kill what is attacking them (particularly if they're 'overgeared'), its not really the game's or your fault, its theirs for not knowing the hate mechanics better.

[Caraway]

Tanks have it incredibly easy in this game compared to some when it comes to determining where you stand with aggro. You have jewels that let you know your position in the hate list, you have meters to show you where you are on a mob compared to the others with hate on it.

Those are all built into the system.

I am glad that a healer can rip aggro off of the tank. I am glad a DPS can make an enemy come running.

Every game I've played where the tank can just sit there spamming their little hate rotation of two/three buttons and keep the mob on them indefinitely I have given up tanking in because it gets boring. Additionally, it doesn't let your DPS think, or make your healer prioritize properly. RIFTs was bad for this; a tank could just spam two skills and nothing will ever get pulled off of them no matter what cooldowns the DPS/healers decided to pop.

Aggro management is everyone's job. It's the DPS' job to figure out the best rotation they can perform to provide the most DPS they can while not yanking a mob away from the tank. It's the healer's job to know what heals to use, whether to prioritize a small heal now or a big one later, or an AE that's going to draw a huge amount of hate.

This isn't WoW and I'm very glad that this game encourages all team members to really have to think.

[Miitan]

Did they make Warrior massively superior at enmity generation or something over a Paladin?

Because I've had no trouble holding hate unless I did something stupid...

[Alak]

I find it hard to believe that anyone that has "played" Paladin for a significant number of 50 encounters doesn't feel that something is amiss. I have ZERO interest in an "I Win!" button or some sort of super glue like agro button, but what we are working with right now isn't efficient. I don't have a problem with the need for dps to regulate themselves to the encounter, but emnity, across the board for the Paladin, needs a closer look at the code level. The emnity multiplier is not where it needs to be with our bread and butter agro generators.

[Ladon]

I find it hard to believe that anyone that has "played" Paladin for a significant number of 50 encounters doesn't feel that something is amiss. I have ZERO interest in an "I Win!" button or some sort of super glue like agro button, but what we are working with right now isn't efficient. I don't have a problem with the need for dps to regulate themselves to the encounter, but emnity, across the board for the Paladin, needs a closer look at the code level. The emnity multiplier is not where it needs to be with our bread and butter agro generators.

I've never had aggro issues with Paladin; ever, and I do speed runs where AEs are being thrown out all over the place and end-game dungeons all week long with relic+1 DDs not having to hold back at all. Aggro generation is honestly one of the last things I would consider needs to be reviewed in the game right now.

[Jeht]

I've been playing a Paladin at 50 for the last week. No issues holding aggro as long as dps aren't being morons.

1) Mark your targets. Threat tanking is balanced between AoE threat and single target threat. DPS will challenge you at single target, while the healer challenges you at AoE threat. I love this, is it makes tanking more challenging and less spam buttons / win all day. Marking targets makes it all easier.

2) Tell your dps to stop being stupid. If there's an accidental pull, hold off while you get them together, then go nuts.

3) Weave Flash into your rotation alot. Then healers won't be peeling mobs.

I haven't had any issues tanking following those 3. It's challenging when you get a dps with a good weapon, but it's do-able.