"Fix Warrior" Threads

[Vmage]

I think I'm at/past the point in my gear where I could tank coil with my warrior (8k hp in a party)

I'm not sure it's something I'll ever do though, even being big enough to comfortably offtank (no illusions that I'd be big enough to handle the 4 stack dreadnought or the double dreadnought after) it just doesn't seem like it's worth it

My group makes use of the fact that scholar DoTs tick harder than summoner DoTs - effectively our dps is higher because we use two paladins that require less healing than warriors would

I just can't rationalize bringing an inferior class to the raid, first world min-maxer problems I guess.

[astrobear]

Agree.

snip

DUDE, why havent you posted on your "alt" account where you have a lvl 50 War tank?

just admit you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

[Taemek]

First off, you have to be kidding. One tank can't take more than 20% more healing than the other to the point you can just wave it away and say "the healers can heal more than that anyway" because in general if they can it comes at some sacrifice, i.e. to their MP longevity or to their healing the rest of the party, otherwise the content would be absolutely trivial, particiularly with a PLD because they would be able to heal FAR more than what is required.

Second thing, are you freaking joking about making a fight 2 minutes faster? If that were the case then the situation were more nuanced. But if the difference between WAR and PLD being 2 minutes would mean the fight is what, 10 minutes long with PLD 8 minutes with WAR. That would mean assuming you have crappy DPS players only putting out 250 dps each, the difference between a WAR and PLD would have to be 20% of the overall raid dps with the PLD. With a PLD you're talking 1100 DPS, so a 2 minute advantage would put the war at 100+220, or 330 DPS. If WAR could put that much out in tank stance, they would be candidates for top DPS in the game.

A negligible difference would be something akin to a WAR shortening an 8 man fight by around the same margin of additional heals they required. So if a fight was 5% shorter they would take 5% more healing. Currently it's somewhere around 2-4% shorter by most counts (which is a negligible difference in length), and WAR takes more than 20% more healing once all things are considered (which is not a negligible difference in survivability).

Warriors are an avoidance based tank due to not being able to don a shield and using a Two Handed weapon, it is the pitfall of avoidance based tanking, it will always be spikey and unreliable. There is no avoiding this and it is how it is mechanically designed and has been at the mercy of ranged based algorithiums since the stance of time. All the math in the world won't change it or prove anything that most of us already know when it comes to avoidance based tanking.

However, do I believe your data analysis covers all spectrums of possibilities? No I don't, you guys are cherry picking what you want to analyse, which is understandable given you were focusing on one thing in particular which was the 1 roll vs multi-roll. I will admit, I am lazy these days, but I have crunched the numbers in years past and spent the hours building large enough samples to pick to peices, but I am over that. I wouldn't mind seeing these data parses that some have been running. How about uploading your findings in to ethier spreadsheets so everyone can see the outcomes please? Also, while your last parsing sessions were used to determine wether or not the range system was a 1 roll or multi-roll system using lower level mobs, I think it is safe to say that alot of people would be very interested in seeing some high end parses from lets say, Dread fights in turn 4 with a PLD and Warrior Comparison or even Titan HM. Not hyperthectical assumption based numbers, some realtime, real world parses.


Also, in regards to fight duration, 2 mins was an example, nothing more and strain on healers was already assumed as I pointed out and is known in a real world enviroment and on that note, people seem to be dealing with it in one way or another.

It boils down to this one simple concept, the company you choose to keep in game is your own choice and if people who don't play your class are telling you it can't be done OR they are not willing to put in the time to help make it work, then you are the only one to blame for the state you are in statisfaction wise. I am sure there is hundreds of people out there who are willing to take on the challenge. Other people are posting results with this attitude, again, regardless of effort involved.


As per this post, later on in:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...cussed./page11

It has already been proven that a Warrior can do 10 - 20% more DPS (based on gear + skill) then a Paladin and you are predicting a 10 - 20% more (based on gear + skill) required healing for a Warrior. This is the flavour of a Warrior, this is how balance is done, like it or lump it. This is what people cannot seem to wrap thier heads around. The trade off is simple, DPS for Survivability OR Survivability for DPS. The way you and the other Warriors who seem to have trouble grasping this aspect of the games flavour towards Warriors is, the balance you want to see will simply not happen. Yes there will be fixes here and there but if you don't accept now, right now that Paladins are a more designed for taking damage tank, then you will never be happy with any future changes.

Once people start clearing Coil and we can do 100% orange to orange, side-by-side comparisons of a Paladin and Warrior in comparitive gear, if the DPS difference is 15 - 20% and the healing required difference is 15 - 20% assuming skill is the same (which it never is and is a varible that can simply not be accounted for), then I say that SE have hit the nail on the head and it is balanced.

Now if anyone wants to prove these guys wrong, show us the DPS parses from Paladin perspective using comparitive gear.

P.S. WAR hps 950?! NO CHANCE. Maybe 120~ tops. Even that is 7200 self cures and parries in a minute including cd use.

We are talking about healers HPS, nothing to do with Warriors.



I think it is safe to say that all the hyperthectical maths can stop, and people can start to bring real world parses to the table for realtime testing and analysis.

[oceanlord]

wall of text from someone who doesnt have level 50 warrior, not worth to read

[Terabyt3]

@Taemak the problem throughout is notthign to do with dps but viability as a tank. The fact remains, regardless of numbers, that WAR mitigation is static.

After a certain incoming DPS (around 600~ apperently for full DL + Relic) PLD becomes better. Requires less healing and support from other party members.

It's not a question of viability, player skill or party make-up but rather efficiency. And PLD is more efficient in BC.

[PessimiStick]

It has already been proven that a Warrior can do 10 - 20% more DPS (based on gear + skill) then a Paladin and you are predicting a 10 - 20% more (based on gear + skill) required healing for a Warrior.

Even if this were true, you realize that those things are in no way a fair tradeoff, right? 10-20% more tank DPS (essentially meaningless) is sooooooooooooo much less useful than needing 10-20% less healing. Probably by close to an order of magnitude in actual usefulness. I still can't decide if you're just a really dedicated troll, or a complete idiot.

[Berezo]

Being a warrior that has tanked all of coil, we can do all of it fine. Stop whining and stop crying, it is really making me sick at this point. If you have half a brain, you and your group can tank ALL of coil with a paladin and a warrior.

[Kitru]

Being a warrior that has tanked all of coil, we can do all of it fine. Stop whining and stop crying, it is really making me sick at this point. If you have half a brain, you and your group can tank ALL of coil with a paladin and a warrior.

And if you had half of a brain, you'd realize that no one is claiming that coil can't be done with a WAR. The claim that is heavily supported by every piece of reliable (e.g. not Hiir's anecdotal responses to his FC's preference for him to continue playing WAR) evidence that can be mustered is that WAR is an inferior tank to PLD because it requires more external healing without providing any real advantages to make up for them (the marginal increase in DPS is so heavily diluted by the higher proportion of DPS in an 8m group that it may as well not exist).

[Terabyt3]

Being a warrior that has tanked all of coil, we can do all of it fine. Stop whining and stop crying, it is really making me sick at this point. If you have half a brain, you and your group can tank ALL of coil with a paladin and a warrior.

Wow are you even able to read?! It's not about viability ffs. It's efficiency. PLD is MORE efficient for coil. FACT.

[Coramac]

Once people start clearing Coil and we can do 100% orange to orange, side-by-side comparisons of a Paladin and Warrior in comparitive gear, if the DPS difference is 15 - 20% and the healing required difference is 15 - 20% assuming skill is the same (which it never is and is a varible that can simply not be accounted for), then I say that SE have hit the nail on the head and it is balanced.

Then you would be horribly incorrect. DPS increase is relative to the sum of all DPS done by the raid. If the Warrior brings 20% more DPS than a Paladin and you have 4 dedicated DPS while the PLD takes 20% less healing, you only have fools taking WAR over PLD. This is an overwhelming edge to the PLD. If the WAR does equal damage to a DPS and does 20% more damage than a PLD, you shorten fights by 5.6%. This is a horrendous trade off- with a WAR counting as a DPS and Tank for an increase of 20% damage taken.