"Fix Warrior" Threads

[oceanlord]

taemek wheres your warrior main ? are you just acting like you know endgame as a warrior?

OH NOES, I am a low level, I can't possibly know what I am talking about......on my alt however, different story.

Since we are going to play the linking game:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1379515

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1380620

These two posts respectively point out the difference in mitigation is negible and there is many more to support it with hard numbers.

Now, show me that Warriors are only doing 6-10% DPS more then a Paladin.

[Terabyt3]

There is no way that WAR's self heal (main form of mitigation) is anywhere near as effective as PLD's once incoming DPS is high enough.
There is proof that WARs damage output is only a tiny bit better than PLD's and PLD's can actually put out more than WAR on occassion because of slashing debuf.

Why continue to even bother arguing at this point.

WAR performs better at low incoming DPS (to a point that requires little to no healing) PLD performs better at high incoming DPS.

Static mitigation vs. % based mitigation. The higher the numbers coming towards the % mitigation the more he mitigates.

If you can't grasp that by now go back to first school.

Until WAR has a main form of mitigation that is scaling to incoming damage the two will never be balanced and PLD will always do better above a certain DMG threshold.
P.S. WAR hps 950?! NO CHANCE. Maybe 120~ tops. Even that is 7200 self cures and parries in a minute including cd use.

Once a PLD mitigates more than that (let's assume roughly 20% over a minute using cd's which is reasonable considering block, parry and dmg reduction cd's) it becomes more effective. So once the dps in this case reaches more than 600 incoming dps (I think, maths needs checked.) A PLD mitigates more than a WAR.

Which is the JOB OF A TANK. Not to DPS.

Coil and Titan are both above the 600 dps incoming threshold for sure which is why life is easier as a PLD right now. I'm not saying it can't be done. Cleared titan and turn 1 with my war but the maths is there and I've speed levelled PLD for the time being to make life easier for the group.

It's a game based on maths, don't discount the numbers and wake up and realise. In static mitigation vs. scaling, scaling will always win as content gets harder.

[Vmage]

I think I'm at/past the point in my gear where I could tank coil with my warrior (8k hp in a party)

I'm not sure it's something I'll ever do though, even being big enough to comfortably offtank (no illusions that I'd be big enough to handle the 4 stack dreadnought or the double dreadnought after) it just doesn't seem like it's worth it

My group makes use of the fact that scholar DoTs tick harder than summoner DoTs - effectively our dps is higher because we use two paladins that require less healing than warriors would

I just can't rationalize bringing an inferior class to the raid, first world min-maxer problems I guess.

[Taemek]

First off, you have to be kidding. One tank can't take more than 20% more healing than the other to the point you can just wave it away and say "the healers can heal more than that anyway" because in general if they can it comes at some sacrifice, i.e. to their MP longevity or to their healing the rest of the party, otherwise the content would be absolutely trivial, particiularly with a PLD because they would be able to heal FAR more than what is required.

Second thing, are you freaking joking about making a fight 2 minutes faster? If that were the case then the situation were more nuanced. But if the difference between WAR and PLD being 2 minutes would mean the fight is what, 10 minutes long with PLD 8 minutes with WAR. That would mean assuming you have crappy DPS players only putting out 250 dps each, the difference between a WAR and PLD would have to be 20% of the overall raid dps with the PLD. With a PLD you're talking 1100 DPS, so a 2 minute advantage would put the war at 100+220, or 330 DPS. If WAR could put that much out in tank stance, they would be candidates for top DPS in the game.

A negligible difference would be something akin to a WAR shortening an 8 man fight by around the same margin of additional heals they required. So if a fight was 5% shorter they would take 5% more healing. Currently it's somewhere around 2-4% shorter by most counts (which is a negligible difference in length), and WAR takes more than 20% more healing once all things are considered (which is not a negligible difference in survivability).

Warriors are an avoidance based tank due to not being able to don a shield and using a Two Handed weapon, it is the pitfall of avoidance based tanking, it will always be spikey and unreliable. There is no avoiding this and it is how it is mechanically designed and has been at the mercy of ranged based algorithiums since the stance of time. All the math in the world won't change it or prove anything that most of us already know when it comes to avoidance based tanking.

However, do I believe your data analysis covers all spectrums of possibilities? No I don't, you guys are cherry picking what you want to analyse, which is understandable given you were focusing on one thing in particular which was the 1 roll vs multi-roll. I will admit, I am lazy these days, but I have crunched the numbers in years past and spent the hours building large enough samples to pick to peices, but I am over that. I wouldn't mind seeing these data parses that some have been running. How about uploading your findings in to ethier spreadsheets so everyone can see the outcomes please? Also, while your last parsing sessions were used to determine wether or not the range system was a 1 roll or multi-roll system using lower level mobs, I think it is safe to say that alot of people would be very interested in seeing some high end parses from lets say, Dread fights in turn 4 with a PLD and Warrior Comparison or even Titan HM. Not hyperthectical assumption based numbers, some realtime, real world parses.


Also, in regards to fight duration, 2 mins was an example, nothing more and strain on healers was already assumed as I pointed out and is known in a real world enviroment and on that note, people seem to be dealing with it in one way or another.

It boils down to this one simple concept, the company you choose to keep in game is your own choice and if people who don't play your class are telling you it can't be done OR they are not willing to put in the time to help make it work, then you are the only one to blame for the state you are in statisfaction wise. I am sure there is hundreds of people out there who are willing to take on the challenge. Other people are posting results with this attitude, again, regardless of effort involved.


As per this post, later on in:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...cussed./page11

It has already been proven that a Warrior can do 10 - 20% more DPS (based on gear + skill) then a Paladin and you are predicting a 10 - 20% more (based on gear + skill) required healing for a Warrior. This is the flavour of a Warrior, this is how balance is done, like it or lump it. This is what people cannot seem to wrap thier heads around. The trade off is simple, DPS for Survivability OR Survivability for DPS. The way you and the other Warriors who seem to have trouble grasping this aspect of the games flavour towards Warriors is, the balance you want to see will simply not happen. Yes there will be fixes here and there but if you don't accept now, right now that Paladins are a more designed for taking damage tank, then you will never be happy with any future changes.

Once people start clearing Coil and we can do 100% orange to orange, side-by-side comparisons of a Paladin and Warrior in comparitive gear, if the DPS difference is 15 - 20% and the healing required difference is 15 - 20% assuming skill is the same (which it never is and is a varible that can simply not be accounted for), then I say that SE have hit the nail on the head and it is balanced.

Now if anyone wants to prove these guys wrong, show us the DPS parses from Paladin perspective using comparitive gear.

P.S. WAR hps 950?! NO CHANCE. Maybe 120~ tops. Even that is 7200 self cures and parries in a minute including cd use.

We are talking about healers HPS, nothing to do with Warriors.



I think it is safe to say that all the hyperthectical maths can stop, and people can start to bring real world parses to the table for realtime testing and analysis.

[PessimiStick]

It has already been proven that a Warrior can do 10 - 20% more DPS (based on gear + skill) then a Paladin and you are predicting a 10 - 20% more (based on gear + skill) required healing for a Warrior.

Even if this were true, you realize that those things are in no way a fair tradeoff, right? 10-20% more tank DPS (essentially meaningless) is sooooooooooooo much less useful than needing 10-20% less healing. Probably by close to an order of magnitude in actual usefulness. I still can't decide if you're just a really dedicated troll, or a complete idiot.

[Taemek]

@Taemak the problem throughout is notthign to do with dps but viability as a tank. The fact remains, regardless of numbers, that WAR mitigation is static.

After a certain incoming DPS (around 600~ apperently for full DL + Relic) PLD becomes better. Requires less healing and support from other party members.

It's not a question of viability, player skill or party make-up but rather efficiency. And PLD is more efficient in BC.

Yep, I never said it wasn't and this is how it always will be because avoidance based tanking is simply never as effcient as a class that is more designed to naturally take more hits.

This is a very slippery slope because how do you make an avoidance based tank, tank as effciently as a tank who is designed to take hits without making them overpowered? You simply can't because everyone knows that the best form of defense is to never get hit in the first place and if you trivalize encounters where you don't take hits, then we know who the flavour of the month will be, this unfortunately is the law and at the mercy of range based algorithums, you win some, you lose some.

Now everyone is saying how PLD's mitigation scales better then that of a Warrior, well when you look at how a Warrior mitigates damage, we mitigate it through our ability to heal ourselves and I believe that alot of people ethier misunderstand how the heals work, don't utilize them correctly or worse, undervalue how important they can be at crucial times and they shrug them off altogether and never use them in a hope that the healers can pull you through. The only way for a Warrior to scale his ability to heal himself is through his damage and like a PLD, the only way for him to do it is through his gear. At some point, the gear curve hits a brick wall because there will simply be no better options and at this point, there is no more scaling. From here, is where we get a better picture of what the classes need adjusted.

People misconfuse this to the extent where they believe that PLD's tank more effciently because of thier skills, it is because of the Block value, nothing more, nothing less. If you take away 1 entire roll as a form of mitigation, you are going to take more damage because of it, it is just common sense. Now if you done the same calculations using Block as a factor for Warriors, you would see they would be not only tank as effciently as a PLD, but more so because of the self heals. Now don't take me out of context here, I am not saying Warriors should be able to use a shield, I am simply stating the point that Block is king.

Even if this were true, you realize that those things are in no way a fair tradeoff, right? 10-20% more tank DPS (essentially meaningless) is sooooooooooooo much less useful than needing 10-20% less healing. Probably by close to an order of magnitude in actual usefulness. I still can't decide if you're just a really dedicated troll, or a complete idiot.

I disagree, if a Warrior can pull 200 - 250 dps in Defiance, then without Defiance up they become a contender for a DPS slot as well. So not only can they OT on the fly if needed to if shit hits the fan, but they can punch out some pretty good sustained DPS both in and out of Defiance.

I don't really feel there is any more to be said on the issue because people are starting to chim in almost daily on how they as Warriors are successfully MT'ing up to Turn 5 and beyond now, so I really don't see an issue if their groups are willing to put in the effort to accomplish it and on that note, I believe it makes them better players then those who hide behind a Paladin for easier mode.

Until there becomes a point where a Warrior simply cannot do it outright and SE say they are aware of the issue, then I think we can all agree that there is an issue. But while Warriors are still proving to able to do it, SE aren't going to bat an eye lid in this general direction.

[Hachiko]

Blah Blah Blah

Your posts just get more inane and nonsensical by the day.Why are you calling a WAR an "avoidance tank" anyway? To be an avoidance tank you have to have some level of higher avoidance. Every parse I've seen has a PLD with more dodges, and the only way you can even say that WAR has more "avoidance" than a PLD is because they have Featherfoot which is a 15 second 15% evasion cooldown. If you think that makes the WAR an avoidance tank you need to go back to MMO school or something.

Second, LOL@ WAR putting out 250 DPS in defiance. I mean, you are welcome to join us back in reality whenever you want. a WAR pulling 250 DPS in defiance would pull ~320-330 DPS outside of defiance, and yeah, that would put them as a contender for top DPS, even over pretty much any DPS job. Even then, you will never see a tank able to "pick up a boss" if necessary doing remotely close to that much damage. Even if it were possible it would only be possible with full Darklight or Better DPS accessories, and that would leave you at about a 800-1000 HP deficit.

And finally, WAR is not successfully MTing up to turn 5 "and beyond". They are OTing up to turn 4 and then switching jobs to a non-tank for Turn 5.

SE will change their stance once tanks in COIL are 95% PLD and 5% WAR, and the PLD running groups are on average 2 turns ahead of the ones running WAR. There was already a huge imbalance in the number of PLD:WAR. This is only going to put more WAR on the back burner.

[oceanlord]

snip.

hachiko, you really need to stop replying his post,
he doesnt play any warrior, he just acting like he know warrior...

that big signature and your bull shit post make me feel sorry for your FC/epoch gaming... having a smartass leader how does it feel

[Taemek]

Your posts just get more inane and nonsensical by the day.Why are you calling a WAR an "avoidance tank" anyway? To be an avoidance tank you have to have some level of higher avoidance. Every parse I've seen has a PLD with more dodges, and the only way you can even say that WAR has more "avoidance" than a PLD is because they have Featherfoot which is a 15 second 15% evasion cooldown. If you think that makes the WAR an avoidance tank you need to go back to MMO school or something.

Second, LOL@ WAR putting out 250 DPS in defiance. I mean, you are welcome to join us back in reality whenever you want. a WAR pulling 250 DPS in defiance would pull ~320-330 DPS outside of defiance, and yeah, that would put them as a contender for top DPS, even over pretty much any DPS job. Even then, you will never see a tank able to "pick up a boss" if necessary doing remotely close to that much damage. Even if it were possible it would only be possible with full Darklight or Better DPS accessories, and that would leave you at about a 800-1000 HP deficit.

And finally, WAR is not successfully MTing up to turn 5 "and beyond". They are OTing up to turn 4 and then switching jobs to a non-tank for Turn 5.

SE will change their stance once tanks in COIL are 95% PLD and 5% WAR, and the PLD running groups are on average 2 turns ahead of the ones running WAR. There was already a huge imbalance in the number of PLD:WAR. This is only going to put more WAR on the back burner.

We are an avoidance based tank because we have no ability to block and block is king. Now until people show us apple to apple real word parses of a Warrior and Paladin in the same ilvl gear in the same sceanrios, no one is going to believe anyones hyperthectical based assumptions and theroy crafting math.

I've seen some parses of Warriors doing upwards of 190 - 210 dps in Defiance stance, why is this surprising for you? I've seen Paladins doing 150 - 170 dps also, I don't see the issue here that you are refering too.

Knee jerk posts are never a good thing, helps to read, although I know alot of people seem to have trouble fully grasping logical posts that don't have numbers to crunch.

Are you refering to the minority of player base that is actually even doing Coil that has sat Warriors on the back burner as you so kindly put it? Hmmmm yes, I agree, SE is clearly going to listen to less then 1% of thier player base..../rollseyes and on that note, you still haven't proven that Warriors are completely incapable of doing it, as many others have and keep doing almost daily.

As I said before, the company you keep ingame is your own choice and if they feel you aren't cutting the mustard or willing to help devise new plans of attack, then maybe you are with the wrong people OR maybe you would like to revisit your own ability to play a Warrior? Just stating the obvious.

[Coramac]

Once people start clearing Coil and we can do 100% orange to orange, side-by-side comparisons of a Paladin and Warrior in comparitive gear, if the DPS difference is 15 - 20% and the healing required difference is 15 - 20% assuming skill is the same (which it never is and is a varible that can simply not be accounted for), then I say that SE have hit the nail on the head and it is balanced.

Then you would be horribly incorrect. DPS increase is relative to the sum of all DPS done by the raid. If the Warrior brings 20% more DPS than a Paladin and you have 4 dedicated DPS while the PLD takes 20% less healing, you only have fools taking WAR over PLD. This is an overwhelming edge to the PLD. If the WAR does equal damage to a DPS and does 20% more damage than a PLD, you shorten fights by 5.6%. This is a horrendous trade off- with a WAR counting as a DPS and Tank for an increase of 20% damage taken.