"Fix Warrior" Threads

[Hachiko]

My point was from yours and others findings, even though based around a roll based system, it shows from your data that the mitigation values are within an acceptable range due to how the mechanically differences of the two classes are played.

You've come to the exact opposite conclusion the results should have led you to. No where in the data is there any support for the idea that mitigation values are of negligible difference.

Are you just trolling or are you that oblivious to reality?

[PessimiStick]

Are you just trolling or are you that oblivious to reality?

A little of both, judging by his previous posts.

[Taemek]

You've come to the exact opposite conclusion the results should have led you to. No where in the data is there any support for the idea that mitigation values are of negligible difference.

Are you just trolling or are you that oblivious to reality?

Neither.

In your findings you are mostly compairing the two classes together to determine wether or not it is a multi-roll system, which you have sccuessfully done. In that data, it shows that, for the data you currently have, it is quite negligible, but again, this comes down to where you want to draw the line on an acceptable value of what is negigible.

Is 5% ok? 10%? 15%? What is ok for you guys? And on that same token, is the difference in DPS from Warrior to Paladin comparitive?

This is off topic anyways, at the end of the day, everyones math prior to learning it was a mutli-roll system was moot. Now that you know the correct order that the multi-roll algorithium functions, maybe people can shift stats around to better favour a Warrior to get a better outcome. This will obviously need further testing.

My guess is, SE aren;t going to knee jerk change anything unless the hard numbers weigh up that don;t leave people scratching thier heads on how they came about that value.

[Hachiko]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1379515

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1380620

These two posts respectively point out the difference in mitigation is negible and there is many more to support it with hard numbers.

Now, show me that Warriors are only doing 6-10% DPS more then a Paladin.

I think you're confused. Both of those posts have only to do with the ordering of abilities, not that the difference in passive mitigation is negligible, because it is not.

Block is a significant increase in mitigation against blockable attacks. More importantly though, blocking pushes critical hits off the table due to it being a multi-roll table (which I think is what we all agree on now). So not only will a PLD mitigate more hits via block, they will suffer less crits because they do so.

And to add on to that, the only thing it was showing was the actual parry rate of PLD and WAR are the same in equal gear, ideally putting to rest any silly arguments that WAR gets more out of parry, or that WAR has some super secret class specific parry formula. This may be where you got confused.

If you can actually find anyone with "hard numbers" showing why WAR are just as easy to keep up, or only negligibly different, I'd like to see them because that is in direct conflict with what I found.

I'm considering doing some sort of theorycraft for everything. Estimating block damage reduction, Estimating parry damage reduction, and looking at Rage of Halone STR reduction. But the fact of the matter is, WAR already requires about 10% more healing before you look at these things once you get to the end-est game stuff. And they work out to significant amounts of mitigation (~5% for block, ~5%(?) for Rage of Halone, and some additional reduction and additional stability by making crits less likely).

Where are your "hard numbers" that the difference is negligible?

I have been a proponent of a WAR buff for a while, if they could bring that break even point up to something like 450dps would that make a difference? And to my other point, are there any fights where the boss doesn't hit extraordinarily hard, but does a lot of AE damage in Coil?

The problem is that even if you tried to cater a boss fight specifically to a WAR, a PLD would still be sufficient if not easier to tank it. For example, a low damage boss that does a lot of AOE damage. Sure, a WAR would be sufficient for this with their self heals that could compete with Shield Oath in this specific instance. However, a PLD would be sufficient too because they are still reducing the damage taken, and because in general the aoe heals plus a couple spot regens will keep them up about as well as a WAR.

The only encounter where WAR is argued for sometimes is Turn 4 because there are many adds involved. But in general it's easily managed by a PLD and the PLD is more likely to survive the damage taken.

[Ehayte]

Sure, a WAR would be sufficient for this with their self heals that could compete with Shield Oath in this specific instance. However, a PLD would be sufficient too because they are still reducing the damage taken, and because in general the aoe heals plus a couple spot regens will keep them up about as well as a WAR.

Well, I was going off the assumption that the previous statement of a WAR being superior if incoming DPS is below 350 as true. If that were the case, than it WOULD be easier to heal the WAR, as we are assuming. Meaning PLD would NOT be as good for this, as the healer would need to focus on healing the PLD more than the WAR, and potentially let a DPS die. I apologize for not making that assumption clear, but saying OK, WAR is a better tank in this situation, but PLD is a better tank in this situation, doesn't make sense : D

I'm not saying its good as-is, but looking at how each tank tanks (I am leveling a WAR currently and starting to get the hang of how it works) it would seem that if they make the right fixes and the content is built right, there should be a significant and strategic advantage to using one tank or the other. I am pretty much just speculating and asking questions. I felt I needed to respond to this as you didn't really address my question, quoted me, and straw-manned by point. Sorry : D

[Hachiko]

I'm not saying its good as-is, but looking at how each tank tanks (I am leveling a WAR currently and starting to get the hang of how it works) it would seem that if they make the right fixes and the content is built right, there should be a significant and strategic advantage to using one tank or the other. I am pretty much just speculating and asking questions. I felt I needed to respond to this as you didn't really address my question, quoted me, and straw-manned by point. Sorry : D

I know what you were trying to point out. The problem is the DPS threshhold is so low for when a PLD overtakes a WAR in terms of "regular" mitigation, that if you go that low on a PLD the healers will have absolutely no problem healing a paladin in such a situation.

Basically I'm not saying a WAR is a BETTER tank in a situation with a generally low dps boss, but rather that it will be trivially easy to keep a Paladin tank up on such a low dps boss given the gear requirements of Coil in general. I'm sorry you felt I straw manned your post, but you basically posited a situation where healing the tank would be so trivial for either tank that it really wouldn't matter.

And that's the point. The only time a WAR is going to be better than a PLD is in a situation where damage on the tank is trivial, and if damage on the tank is trivial it doesn't matter which job is tanking it.

[Ehayte]

Snip

Gotcha - does anyone have a good feel for what the break even point would need to move to to make it worth it? Like I asked in a previous post where I threw out the number 450?

I am only being so persistent on this issue because I have played a PLD up to the HM primals and I find it extraordinarily boring, but I find WAR at level 36ish very very fun and engaging. I'd love to main the WAR, and will move it up to 50, but I will need to eventually make mytho tombstone decisions: focus a few on DPS for war, or stay all VIT/parry for PLD.

[Leiron]

snipped

I think you should read those posts because they don't discuss the damage mitigation as you think they do.

[RapBreon]

There are many threads in this same forum more or less proving our mitigation is actually a large portion behind Paladin.

Also, the overall mitigation from Inner Beast is quite low on high DPS mobs. This Inner Beast change doesn't fix it.

[Dagimp007]

TO be honest i think there is a simple way to improve warriors... com up with an item to put in the of hand slot, make the item have some vit and dex, and maybe acc... call it be like a laso that "attaches" to the great axe, or have it be our tomahawk, with the tomahawk it would auto make us do more damage while giving us a little more EHP. with the tomahawk we would be the tank hat does more damage yet have a relative EHP, dont get me wrong healers still would need to not be lazy and heal us to make our EHP stay up but its an option.

Implementing wise simply add it in with e Darklight gear so you have to be lvl 50 and its to help even the feild at 50 since before Coil wars and pallies are equal.