Good Vs Bad Player

[Sixmp]

You could say that someone who studies hard and always does well on tests is a good student. Is a school student that never studies and always fails his tests a good student? Sure, he can always just retake the test over and over again, never bothering to study and he'll eventually get enough answers right to pass the test, but that doesn't make him better than the person who studied before hand, not by a long shot.]

Taking a test doesn't supply you with the conditions to learn unless of course you are talking about a particular test? So in that context of course you would say that the student that does not study is a bad student.
Here is the thing though, we are Adventurers and we test ourselves against an environment that allows us to learn as we go.

So while i see your point, i feel it is not quite relevant in the context you are trying to use it in. Also in the environment we are testing ourselves in we are allowed to learn on the fly, so you are testing your wits and ability to adapt rather than just memorizing patterns you are taught on a guide or on a youtube clip.
Which would imply not studying means you are learning to use more skills to complete the test.

[Vhailor]

I actually have a very different definition of good vs. bad players (compared to the OP), and most people I know seem to share it for the most part. It's easier to define in the negative, so I'll start with that.

A 'bad player' isn't someone who comes in unprepared, it's someone who can't react or learn or engage in what might be called 'rational behaviour' in the game environment sense. For instance, in the XIV sense, a bad player would be an individual who routinely gets hit by standard red-zone AoE, or doesn't figure out Ifrit's plume rotation within the first few runs, or doesn't understand the most basic elements of tanking despite reaching level 50 on a Paladin.

A 'good player' is someone who doesn't embody these unfortunate traits. They learn quickly, adapt rationally, and while they make mistakes, they don't generally make the same mistake twice. Such a player will also generally recognize when their gear is insufficient for a particular challenge, which is why they are rarely seen engaging Garuda with a level 45 weapon and full AF.

TL;DR - Both good and bad players can do their homework, or not do their homework. A good player will quickly learn whether they have or haven't researched the activity in question, while a bad player will fail to be proficient whether they have done the homework or not.

PS - This discussion, from my perspective, is completely separate from the question of whether or not someone is enjoyable to adventure with. While I generally prefer adventuring with good players, there are plenty of talented jerks, and plenty of wonderful people with dubious skill.

[Freakiie]

I find this whole "homework is bad" stuff rather amusing, considering there's an entire chapter of the mainquest dedicated to your character gathering information from the Company of Heroes on how to fight Titan :P

[Sixmp]

I actually have a very different definition of good vs. bad players (compared to the OP), and most people I know seem to share it for the most part. It's easier to define in the negative, so I'll start with that.
A 'bad player' isn't someone who comes in unprepared, it's someone who can't react or learn or engage in what might be called 'rational behaviour' in the game environment sense. For instance, in the XIV sense, a bad player would be an individual who routinely gets hit by standard red-zone AoE, or doesn't figure out Ifrit's plume rotation within the first few runs, or doesn't understand the most basic elements of tanking despite reaching level 50 on a Paladin.

A 'good player' is someone who doesn't embody these unfortunate traits. They learn quickly, adapt rationally, and while they make mistakes, they don't generally make the same mistake twice. Such a player will also generally recognize when their gear is insufficient for a particular challenge, which is why they are rarely seen engaging Garuda with a level 45 weapon and full AF.

TL;DR - Both good and bad players can do their homework, or not do their homework. A good player will quickly learn whether they have or haven't researched the activity in question, while a bad player will fail to be proficient whether they have done the homework or not.

PS - This discussion, from my perspective, is completely separate from the question of whether or not someone is enjoyable to adventure with. While I generally prefer adventuring with good players, there are plenty of talented jerks, and plenty of wonderful people with dubious skill.

I wouldn't say my version is that much different to yours. You agree with me on the point that "homework" is more of a choice of playing style rather than proof of being a good player as well :P
I did spend more time pointing out that for the most part people i see screaming and shouting are usually stating that people who don't come totally prepared to a fight including watching videos etc are bad players.

[Sixmp]

I find this whole "homework is bad" stuff rather amusing, considering there's an entire chapter of the mainquest dedicated to your character gathering information from the Company of Heroes on how to fight Titan :P

Hehe, did it tell you to google the fight on youtube?

I don't think the intention is to say homework is bad, but to point out that just because people would rather go in blind for the extra difficulty, feeling of excitement etc, does not mean that they are instantly bad players. Which from my experience is what seems to be going around in MMO's.

[vRoad]

Perhaps do the fights/encounters when guides/videos/etc didn't exist. The only "adventuring" that you're probably going to experience is if you're one the first few people to get to that content. Unfortunately, that's just the way things are in this day and age of MMORPGs. If you haven't achieved something within the first couple of weeks of it being available, then the norm will change to you needing to know ahead of time what you're about to deal with because the information is readily available to you now.

[PsychologyPhD]

A few quick points on this: (while I wait for the DF )

Like with any job, you learn as you go. Some jobs you can have some prep/background for. But rarely do you know exactly how to do everything or can just jump in and know what you are doing at every step of the way. If your real world job you can, that is great, but in my experience that is not the norm for at the very least first time jobs (which is what these are in game), and rarely for well, any job.

Also, this game doesn't teach you any of the new job skills. It just gives them to you. No quests to train, no text bubbles. Just "here have a new skill!". So, in game, you are expected to learn the skills and how to use them "on the job" so to speak. And while it is true you are playing a character with a given job, in game context, you are doing it without outside support. These jobs are "ancient" jobs, hidden/gone from the world. You are mostly learning them on your own in game, without much support. As far as job rotation/groups, I agree that perhaps there should be more practice involved in game, but mainly through guildhests. People should be playing those over and over again for practicing groups and there should be more of them geared towards specific roles. These should probably be more widely used and tied to the main story to encourage them, but they aren't currently, so expecting people to have the skill acquired through such practice is naive: most people will learn again, "on the job" in dungeons.

Finally as far as dungeons go, in storyline, your job doesn't help you with mechanics or knowing what is required to win any given specific fight. In game you go into each dungeon "blind" for the "first time". So if you believe in story context, and adventure, then it is actually contrary to story immersion to go in already knowing the fight. It has nothing to do with "being prepared" and everything to do with story immersion/adventure.

If you don't care about that level of story immersion, that is perfectly fine and I don't think anyone would fault you for it, but don't expect others to feel the same way as you or try and force them into giving up the story immersion simply because you don't care to play that way.

You state some very valid points and I see no reason to argue against them. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. One thing I would keep in mind, even though "most people" do one thing or another doesn't make it right or okay. People do have the right to do what they feel is best but that doesn't mean their actions are deemed useful or practical. Just as in real life, MMOs, and other online-games, communities develop a society. That society creates its own Norms, Folkway, Mores, Taboos, Stigmas and what they consider deviant acts. Some see playing without a care as Bad wrong fun, some see it as enjoyment. Each group will see the other as performing some sort of deviant act breaking some from of the aforementioned. Who is right or wrong I don't know and neither does anyone else, but we can speculate all day.

[CaZx]

....

I agree 100%. I see nothing adventurous about going and watching youtube videos of someone else running a dungeon so that I do not have any surprises at all. I know it gets frustrating when you wipe on a dungeon..heck I get annoyed too..and my personal intentions are never to ruin someone elses experience by being that newb. However, I feel like there is a much greater sense of accomplishment if I learn on my own...even if that entails learning from a more experienced player while I am in the dungeon.

The idea of "doing homework" and watching all the tips and tricks vids prior to doing something on my own seems so lame and it negates all sense of accomplishment or adventure that a good MMO should give..at least in my opinion.

[Leowilde]

Goodness, this is getting so old.

[KitCat]

Hm. From my point of view a good player can learn the dance fairly quickly and adapt to it. And average player may take longer to learn but eventually gets it.

A bad player is someone who can't/won't learn and will continue making the same mistakes until carried through, or raised after the fact.

Gear in this game isn't hard to get, it's just tedious and time consuming, so I don't feel like not gearing up makes you a bad player. It just makes you a person who doesn't care about other peoples time enough to put in any effort. That being said, people in this game seem to cry if you're not absolutely overgeared for everything.