Why Monks need a Buff + Petition!

[Jayded]

stuff

Fists of fire is 5% dmg increase not 10%. Was nerfed. Didn't check the rest of your math just pointing this out.

[Rapiso]

ok, since i'm a nice guys, i will give some number! let's use the potency and see how much of damage we can hope get from the monk best combo of 3 skill (and because i'm nice i will take the best condition possible for the monk ^^):

- Dragon Kick: 150
- true strike: 150
- snap punch: 180
total of potency: 480
we know that the monk can increase this by +41% (+10% from fire punch, +10% from twin snake, +21% from Greased lightning)
total of potency full buff: 678.8

let's take a DRG combo as comparaison:

- True Thrust: 150
- Vorpal thrust: 200
- Full thrust; 300
total potency: 650
the dragon can increase of 10% him damage from heavy thrust
total potency full buff: 715

why i didn't take in account the reduction of defence from dragon kick and evisceration? because it don't change the potency.
now let's see with the speed, let's take for the monk a 1.9 gcd and for the dragoon a 2.4, for the data, we will use 3 time this combo.

- for the monk is 1.9 x 9 : 17.1 sec
- for the dragoon is 2.4 x 9 : 21.6 sec

a difference of 4.5 second, giving 2 more attack for the monk.
time to enter in the main subject, for stay nice we will use the potency full buff.

giving for the monk: 676.8 x 3 = 2030.4
we add the two first attack from the combo for the 2 hit gain with the speed. 300+41% = 423
total for the monk : 2453.4

now the dragoon: 715 x 3 = 2145
difference with advantage for the monk of 308.4

on paper, monk as the time pass can be more deadly than the dragoon is true, but is not that amazing that some want to say us. 3 point i have not mentioned in this:
- the critical, since the damage of the monk are lower per hit the difference of damage gain from the critical can make up for the difference of hit. critical is a flat +50% of damage (if a monk hit at 400 in critical it will be 600, if the dragon hit for 600 it can reach 900)
- the builder rotation, that the time we need to get the GL up to 3 stack without perfect balance. the damage will be loose when the dragoon only need 2 skill for get at the maximum of it capacity.
- finally, and that the most important point, the fight mechanic by itself, it's really rare to get the perfect rotation, often the monster will make us loose our GL or simply don't allows us to hit on the side or the back.

all of this for say that, on paper the monk is a nice dps, in the fact... is not true, dragoon (the other melee dps) will outdamage the monk (at the same gears/skill)
do the monk need a buff? hmm... no, he need to get ride of all this trouble as position and damage boost from GL. if you do this, the monk will be more enjoyable first and more balanced.

ps: i was playing monk in the V1 and believe me i have fight hard while the beta for make them understand the trouble and i was not alone on this. a lot of people are saying, we are good learn to play. you can't be perfect we are human, sadly the monk at it is for get the maximum damage you need to be perfect! you need to be a machine that will execute the same rotation perfectly for get the best of the class.

another point i haven't say, the dragoon combo with full buff can be used from level 28! the monk one... 50.

ohh before i forget, 100 potency = your automatic attack.

What is this bullshit !? Nobody react ! You sesriously think it's nice to post some random low-tier TC and thinking you're a nice guy ? Please ...

First, why are you picking only 3 skills from each class ? It's not even the most used (True Strike).
If you want to compare their DPS, at least add auto attack damage to your results, it's 30% of our Damages.

Fist of fire is 5%, Twin Snakes is 10%, right, but it's not even in your combo...
Why your monk has 1.9 gcd and your dragoon 2.4, it's like 150 more skillspeed. Assuming they have the same level of gear, you've to take this into consideration and take the same amount of skillspeed for each class or transcribe these extra stats into crit/dtr (but you'll need to start consider crit and dtr in your calculation)
You add 2 extra hit for the monk but this is not enough to sync with the dragoon (1.9*11=20.9 < 21.6), your results are misleading, you should have done an average potency per second for each class as conslusion.

Your points :
- Can't understand your point on Crit ??? Monk and Dragoon benefit from the crit the same way.
- Ok, but you can still top charting in primal fights.
- Subjective.

If an equal geared dragoon has more dps than you, it just means he is better than you.

Please, stop the misinformation.

[Xal]

raise the GL buff duration all gonna be fine like 20 sec.

[Xal]

nerfin monks? ffs........

[silentwindfr]

@rapiso: yeah just did check, fist of fire is only 5% now. (was 10% in p3-4)

- why i didn't put auto attack? we don't control auto attack, i'm doing a comparaison between a basic rotation of 3 skill.

- why true strike? for the raptor stance, true strike is the most powerfull skill in term of potency twin snake = 140 at best. we can argue too about why dragon kick and not bootshine that auto critical in the back when in opo opo stance, one more time because dragon kick = 150, bootshine = 130.

- i do have both class at 50, my monk is in amdapor and my dragoon in DL.
actually my monk go to 2.04 in gcd under self buff (1.93 with selene in the group) i think high stuffed monk can confirm that we get close of 1.9 in better stuff. dragoon don't have a lot speed attack on them stuff.
- why 2 more strike, when the difference is 4.5 sec? 4.5/1.9 = 2.3684 skill, i'm not sure i can found a 0.3684 skill somewhere.

- can't understand my point on the critical? here some fact i have tested my self, with full self buff and cooldown (blood for blood include for both) my monk hit for 570 with him best strike, my dragoon hit for 870 and we are talking of critical. actually in group both have a difference of 25 in str and 1 in base damage (ifrit didn't have give me my claw yet); i doubt it can make up for this sort of differnce. true blood for blood give more boost for the dragoon (+10% actually)
my point is, as we all know, the dragoon hit slower than the monk, but hit harder, then he get more damage from the critical, because it's a flat boost of 50% of damage.
- on fight like ifrit? no impossible the loose of GL and twin snake is killing our dps drastically. that a fact, monk are only good when they don't loose GL/twin snake.
- is not subjective to say that the game mechanic is hurting the monk the most! or you want to turn blind eyes about what every monk say on the loose of GL, directly link to the game mechanic of many... most fight in the game.

why i haven't used a longer rotation? why i haven't included the out gcd skill? 2 reason:
- about the out gcd skill, the dragoon have more skill at use out gcd
- a mon complex rotation will have become more complex to show in math. like the damage done while the builder and how much time you spend for get it. here it's a simple comparaison between a basic rotation that can be used as main basic cycle for get the best damage of both. indeed the rotation is more complexe. we can talk of the timer of twin snake or heavy thrust.


by the way, you did miss my conclusion saying that the monk don't need a boost, but a change in it mechanic for be less... punishing.
we can increase the duration of GL but it will not change the fact, that you will need a full rotation of 9 skill for get to full trottle.
the main trouble about monk damage are based on the damage boost in GL and the fact that most of the skill ask to be on side or back for get the full power of it.


If they change this, take out the damag boost from GL and position of the skill, they will be able to focus more on the combo system and who know give to the monk tool for be more team friendly (outside mantra)

[Rapiso]

@rapiso: yeah just did check, fist of fire is only 5% now. (was 10% in p3-4)

- why i didn't put auto attack? we don't control auto attack, i'm doing a comparaison between a basic rotation of 3 skill.

- why true strike? for the raptor stance, true strike is the most powerfull skill in term of potency twin snake = 140 at best. we can argue too about why dragon kick and not bootshine that auto critical in the back when in opo opo stance, one more time because dragon kick = 150, bootshine = 130.

- i do have both class at 50, my monk is in amdapor and my dragoon in DL.
actually my monk go to 2.04 in gcd under self buff (1.93 with selene in the group) i think high stuffed monk can confirm that we get close of 1.9 in better stuff. dragoon don't have a lot speed attack on them stuff.
- why 2 more strike, when the difference is 4.5 sec? 4.5/1.9 = 2.3684 skill, i'm not sure i can found a 0.3684 skill somewhere.

- can't understand my point on the critical? here some fact i have tested my self, with full self buff and cooldown (blood for blood include for both) my monk hit for 570 with him best strike, my dragoon hit for 870 and we are talking of critical. actually in group both have a difference of 25 in str and 1 in base damage (ifrit didn't have give me my claw yet); i doubt it can make up for this sort of differnce. true blood for blood give more boost for the dragoon (+10% actually)
my point is, as we all know, the dragoon hit slower than the monk, but hit harder, then he get more damage from the critical, because it's a flat boost of 50% of damage.
- on fight like ifrit? no impossible the loose of GL and twin snake is killing our dps drastically. that a fact, monk are only good when they don't loose GL/twin snake.
- is not subjective to say that the game mechanic is hurting the monk the most! or you want to turn blind eyes about what every monk say on the loose of GL, directly link to the game mechanic of many... most fight in the game.

why i haven't used a longer rotation? why i haven't included the out gcd skill? 2 reason:
- about the out gcd skill, the dragoon have more skill at use out gcd
- a mon complex rotation will have become more complex to show in math. like the damage done while the builder and how much time you spend for get it. here it's a simple comparaison between a basic rotation that can be used as main basic cycle for get the best damage of both. indeed the rotation is more complexe. we can talk of the timer of twin snake or heavy thrust.


by the way, you did miss my conclusion saying that the monk don't need a boost, but a change in it mechanic for be less... punishing.
we can increase the duration of GL but it will not change the fact, that you will need a full rotation of 9 skill for get to full trottle.
the main trouble about monk damage are based on the damage boost in GL and the fact that most of the skill ask to be on side or back for get the full power of it.


If they change this, take out the damag boost from GL and position of the skill, they will be able to focus more on the combo system and who know give to the monk tool for be more team friendly (outside mantra)

You didn't understand my post right ?

I will be easier : Don't try to theorycraft when you can't, you're just giving false informations to people.

I'll repeat :
- Don't try to compare the dps of 2 class with taking absolutly nothing into consideration.
- If you don't use Twin snakes in your calculations, don't use his buff too.
- You've to normalize skill potency with crit. (eg:Boottshine)
- Skillspeed isn't a good stat to max, I don't think 1.9s GCD is reachable if you want your acc cap. But this is not the point, the main issue is that your TC has absolutly no sense, and i hope you'll not foul people.
- "0.3684s skill" ... Do a fucking average idiot ! Read my post the next time.
- So you're that kind of people who think that the biggest crit you can make, the more dps you have ... Man ... I just can't argue with a monkey ...
- Mnk are very good when they can keep their buffs, they are OK on primals.

I stop here, I can't explain you how the whole world works.

[oceanlord]

im going to hate playing monk on a boss like demon wall... i hope there is no such boss anymore
and i hate oversized boss... although its awesome but it will make monk positioning bit harder

[ChaozK]

im going to hate playing monk on a boss like demon wall... i hope there is no such boss anymore
and i hate oversized boss... although its awesome but it will make monk positioning bit harder

You cant get Rear attacks at all on demon wall, however you can still get flanks. MNKs can still get around 90% of their dps from flank alone. You mainly lose the crit/extra potency from rear Bootshine and True strike but the rest is still intact. With Dragoon however you lose your best Debuff (Disembovel) and your best DoT (Chaos Thrust), so he gets actually hit harder in terms of dps.

[silentwindfr]

you are the one that don't understand, you try to justify you own reasoning by insulting me.
what i did was taking in account optimal condition for the monk, meaning without taking in account the rotation needed for keep the buff. i'm not there for tell this situation or this situation. we try to get a base for understand the potential of a class.
i can make a more accurate calcul by using the whole rotation of each class on 90 second if you want, that not the point.

some point i will try to make clear here for show how much you are focus on a small part of the monk dps.
- you talk of ACC here it's important when you reach bahamut coil that normally must be done with Crystal tower equipement, we don't know how much acc/skillspeed we will get from it.
we don't make this for bahamut coil only but for any situation.
- other point is perfectly possible to keep 1.9 with a scholar in the group for 30 sec.
- if Dragon kick critical the damage input will be better, when you do a basic comparaison with optimal situation you don't use the critical in account, because is not possible to know if you will or not critical on this or this skill.
- about the critical, i'm simply asthonished... you didn't read me, i have simply said this: Dragon hit slower, but per hit the damage is far stronger. since the critical bonus is a flat +50% it's means he will get a better dps from the critical than the monk. i will try to make it simplier for you understand the point:
- the monk will land 11 hit of 10 damage all critical on a time of 20 second, 10+50% = 15 x 11 = 165/20 = 8.25 dps
- the dragoon will land 9 hit of 15 damage all critical on the same 20 second, 15+50% = 22.5 x 9 = 202.5/20 = 10.125 dps
i hope this time it's more clear for you. indeed in normal condition is not possible to get that much critical in row, and more important the difference of damage per hit between dragoon and monk are more than 5 damage *grins*

why compare with soo little thing in consideration? because add more variable will increase the lenght of the thread to even break the limit with edit. why compare dragoon and monk? because they are close enough for be used as comparaison between each, the other dps (ranged) don't have the same restriction as position, avoid melee attack of the boss or combo.
indeed both class have a focus different as dps, however, we can't know where is the dps of the monk if we don't do comparaison.

finally, we lack too much data from the game, for begin to say with absolut, our dps is right or not right. we will need tons of time to check data ACCURATE, not from the parseer. it's well know that the DoT are... inaccuratly boosted in the data and is important to point it Demolish is as strong than Bio 2.


oh and more important, mister i don't read until the end, the math i have done, show that monk dps can be fairly good in optimal condition, actually better than the dragoon, i'm not for a boost of the Monk. will be nice to understand this. but the point of this... is only in optimal condition. and is fairly well know that the..."optimal" condition are extremely hard to maintain for a long time!

ps mister world best monk, if you are not ok with my explanation feel free to give true constructive argument with math into it... simply insulting and saying you know more than the other is not constructive and don't make your point valid.
we don't talk of the monk only in Bahamut Coil, but in every aspect of the game, is called balance. thanks to take this in consideration.

[savant07]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVDqzSBUhKY

All people whining about monk can STFU now.