XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

[Kaalan]

Yea but that is only get get very slight gains in tanking - it does not make it so you can compete with a normally geared paladin.

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Wanna play Warrior?

Buy crafted gear - overmeld it - perfect your rotations for every possible situation, and then live with the fact that a Paladin can do just as well, if not better than you, without all the extra effort.

That's what I meant. It's not normal than a full ilvl 90 WAR with HQ crafted acc fully melded would still be inferior compared to a PLD that just farmed a full DL set in like, one week and a half, but that's how it is currently and the sooner you make peace with that, the sooner you will get there.
And if some sort of miracle happens and YoshiP decide to give us some love, if you already farmed all that gear, you're going to laugh at those DL PLD.

[Hachiko]

Hachiko, I have seen countless claims made in these forums about relative dps of both classes while tanking (and thus while warrior is also under its damage reduction buff).

Have you done any math on relative dps between the two classes?

Of course assuming the pld is also using fracture.

I have, but that was before I felt that Inner Beast should be used as often as I think it should be used now (though I did calculate for it, I used 22.5 seconds as time between Inner Beasts). My theorycraft/math put WAR about 10-20% above PLD while both are in Tank stance. I.E. WAR at 120-140, PLD at 100-120 on constant damage fights. This is around what I have seen myself and what has been reported anecdotally. (Damage will be lower in real fights like Garuda / Titan because of downtime from teleports and such).

If you have 4 competent DPS players, 20 DPS is going to be between 1.5 - 2.5% faster fights. Which is worth thinking about when it comes to healers "time to oom" stat, or enrage/soft enrage mechanics, but is overall not a huge impact, and it doesn't solve the other problem of "how many gcd's does it take to top a tank off" which is the biggest weakness of WAR right now.

That's not how it works. With enough dedication (farm and stuff) you can get both. WAR need crafted DPS accessories overmelded more than any other job.
I agree that this whole thing in itself is a huge hit in our face but I had to make this point.

I consider that a fringe case! But even still the point basically stands. If you were to replace all 5 accessories with the STR / DEX pieces and overmelded it would still only be a gain of 45 STR for a loss of 25 VIT (assuming comparing to ilvl 90 accessories, though the gain in DEX would probably be worthwhile). Point is you're still sacrificing SOME survivability for DPS, even though in that case you're sacrificing less and it's probably worth it, the amount of survivability you gain isn't enough to bridge the gap.

Then again I kind of wonder how a PLD would do with that kind of min-maxing as well. They should theoretically get even better returns from dex, due to it boosting shield block rate as well as parry.

I think the most interesting way to think about is that if all other gear is equal between the tanks, a PLD with a Square Maple Shield in Binding Coil will be easier to heal than a WAR.

[Englesyn]

If memory serves, when your character gets hit, the check goes in order of: Dodge, then Block, then Parry.

PLD can dodge, block and parry, WAR can only dodge and Parry...

Seeing that paladins and warriors have the same base dodge and parry. This means Paladins get to roll a 'dice' three times to mitigate damage, vs. warriors two times.

Hope this clears anyone's thought about the matter. Some people still think that because warrior parries a few times more makes them seem like they have better parry. No, that's not the case. It's because the paladin that gets a successful block doesn't get a chance to roll for a parry.

[Gamemako]

My theorycraft/math put WAR about 10-20% above PLD while both are in Tank stance.

I found the same thing -- I estimated an 18% DPS advantage for WAR over PLD while both are in tanking stance. In terms of overall party DPS, it's likely around 2% in an 8-man party.

By the way, nice breakdown of the issues.

[HiirNoivl]

Oh please. It is not that hard. Most of my stuff ain't even melded. Ya'll need to quit whinging.

What makes you assume that you are the "optimal" warrior tank and we are looking to be like you? The numbers you provided from your build still make you sub-par to a paladin tank with lesser gear...

Ain't nobody I play with poking at my clothes. Though I carefully consider my options and make adjustments based on encounters, bring food and potions and stuff, you know... like an endgame player who actually monitors her play and takes care of things. I don't view this as "extra" effort. But I love the job. I've played Coil as PLD. I didn't like it to be honest, but I was willing to do it. I didn't see the huge advantage of PLD over WAR. I can see some situations where PLD could be better, but I could see some situations were WAR could be better too. I think the "WAR inferiority complex" has gone on long enough. If I hit a wall at Coil 4 (I'm expecting 0 trouble at Coil 3) I'll get back to you.

Once again the issue is not that it is impossible to do some of coil with a warrior tank... it is the fact that doing it with a warrior tank takes more healing. You are delusional if you think by going in as a warrior you are some how helping the party out. Sure you might not do as well playing a paladin as you do playing a warrior - But a well played PLD will perform better than a well played Warrior every time in any encounter where the incoming dps is over 400ish.

I ask: "Do you want me to switch to PLD? I can if you guys want." The answer was a resounding "No."

So what can I say? Just giving people what they want.

Hard to have an intelligent argument with you. You bring no proof no logical explanations, no facts, no calculations - starting to think you are a female player playing based on emotions and not logic. (I kid - you could very well be an emotional driven male!).

Uh oh... sexism card was played. Now who's out of an argument?

Guys I don't know how to say it any way other then just stop responding to Hiir and Lhun. They don't understand math, have not killed anything of note and are the PRIME example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect .

The fact that they keep arguing stating Str over Vit and that crit is important should give you all the info you need about them.

I don't argue STR over VIT, nor do I argue VIT over STR. It's not hard to understand.

As to Hiir's actual comment, I think he's confusing the desire for things not to change with the desire for optimal performance. Anyone that you run with that is emotionally invested in you (i.e. friends with you) isn't going to recommend you play a class that you don't want to play (which, regardless of what you said, Hiir, you're pretty obviously not enthused by the idea of playing a PLD instead of a WAR). The answer you're getting has nothing to do with the comparative level of performance between the two classes and more to do with the fact that your friends don't want to offend you or make you feel bad by effectively requiring you to bring a class that you don't like.

I don't see where a change is even necessary. The people who desire the change, I don't believe are playing the class correctly.

As for my "friends"... I barely know them. We get along just fine. It's not just me being a WAR that's not "optimal", our party was not "Optimal" (one BRD, one BLM, lots of melee, Two healers). If they didn't want suggest I play PLD to avoid hurting my feelings, what about everyone else?

Maybe they're just not your typical close minded, one-set-up-onry typical endgame folks who couldn't think out of the box if you drew them a diagram and wrote step by step instructions.

[Derza]

Oh please. It is not that hard. Most of my stuff ain't even melded. Ya'll need to quit whinging

What makes you assume that you are the "optimal" warrior tank and we are looking to be like you? The numbers you provided from your build still make you sub-par to a paladin tank with lesser gear...

[Kitru]

What makes you assume that you are the "optimal" warrior tank and we are looking to be like you? The numbers you provided from your build still make you sub-par to a paladin tank with lesser gear...

Hubris and delusion, plus a sprinkling of repression.

[Derza]

...

Once again the issue is not that it is impossible to do some of coil with a warrior tank... it is the fact that doing it with a warrior tank takes more healing. You are delusional if you think by going in as a warrior you are some how helping the party out. Sure you might not do as well playing a paladin as you do playing a warrior - But a well played PLD will perform better than a well played Warrior every time in any encounter where the incoming dps is over 400ish.

[Vire]

Guys I don't know how to say it any way other then just stop responding to Hiir and Lhun. They don't understand math, have not killed anything of note and are the PRIME example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect .

The fact that they keep arguing stating Str over Vit and that crit is important should give you all the info you need about them.

[Derza]

I ask: "Do you want me to switch to PLD? I can if you guys want." The answer was a resounding "No."

So what can I say? Just giving people what they want.

Hard to have an intelligent argument with you. You bring no proof no logical explanations, no facts, no calculations - starting to think you are a player that plays based on emotions and not logic.