XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

[Maelwys]

One thing's evident... both WAR and PLD can pull a HECK of a lot of hate.
And that's just on the Forums.

[Gamemako]

So... WARs can be at times, "clubbed by a special mechanic" but are otherwise fine?
What 'task' are they failing to do? Who assigned that 'task'? You?

I don't think I was clear. The task is main tanking. That is what we're talking about a WAR doing. WAR is not a viable DPS; that much is clear, just as DRG is not a viable tank. We are discussing whether WAR can tank the opponents necessary to clear content. This is not a matter of any particular mechanic; once a damage threshold is reached, WAR will struggle.

Isn't all of this beyond your ability to judge? What Coil experience do you have?

Doesn't matter. I only state what is observed, and that which is mathematically demonstrable.

Of course Two PLDs can clear everything, they are the bread and butter... one sided pure defensive tanks.

That also does not matter. You are saying that because they are proactive tanks, they are innately able. If all of their abilities were nerfed to 1% mitigation, they would still be "pure defensive" tanks, but they would also no longer be viable. Put simply, WAR is weak and PLD is strong because they are poorly-balanced, not because of some innate function of design.

Doesn't change anything to the fact that a PLD/WAR duo can also clear everything... WARs are viable, end of the story.

Non sequitur. You have only shown that WAR can play second fiddle, not that WAR is viable as a main tank. If WAR can be carried with PLD as main-tank, then WAR is viable as off-tank/add-tank only, not as main tank. That would suggest that PLD is main-tank and off-tank while WAR is off-tank only. You need to demonstrate that WAR can main-tank any endgame content.

You can keep saying that two WAR can complete turns 1 and 2, but you have not given any evidence. I cannot prove a negative. With the excess of WAR unwanted for endgame content, I would expect that someone would have done it and recorded it, but I was not able to find an example. Can someone demonstrate this occurring?

[Hachiko]

Not sure why people are now arguing about warrior viability. Anyone can be carried through content given enough effort by the other party members.

The biggest thing isn't that playing a WAR isn't just more effort on the part of the WAR, like many people seem to insist.

The fact of the matter is that playing a WAR doesn't show off your skill as a WAR. It shows off the skill of the rest of your party. The weaknesses of the WAR don't even fall that heavily on the WAR when it comes to endgame. It falls on everyone else.

The WARs who are complaining aren't complaining because they want it to be easier for them. They are complaining because they don't like being a handicap for the rest of their party.

P.S. WAR is clearly not viable for all content. It's only viable as an "off tank" with more effort than would be required for a PLD "off tank." So claiming that WAR is viable for all the content in the game is no more accurate than saying a healer in ilvl 40 equipment is viable for Titan as long as everyone else has relics and ilvl 70 gear.

[javid]

Not sure why people are now arguing about warrior viability. Anyone can be carried through content given enough effort by the other party members.

The biggest thing isn't that playing a WAR isn't just more effort on the part of the WAR, like many people seem to insist.
The fact of the matter is that playing a WAR doesn't show off your skill as a WAR. It shows off the skill of the rest of your party. The weaknesses of the WAR don't even fall that heavily on the WAR when it comes to endgame. It falls on everyone else.

The WARs who are complaining aren't complaining because they want it to be easier for them. They are complaining because they don't like being a handicap for the rest of their party.

P.S. WAR is clearly not viable for all content. It's only viable as an "off tank" with more effort than would be required for a PLD "off tank." So claiming that WAR is viable for all the content in the game is no more accurate than saying a healer in ilvl 40 equipment is viable for Titan as long as everyone else has relics and ilvl 70 gear.

This is not true. AND EVEN IF IT WAS! It still demonstrates skill the "carry" a gimp job through content. That last statement is simply uninformed... Several; severallllllllll WAR mt; double WAR have completed everything to titan to turns 2! Just b/c most ppl can't do it ; doesn't mean no one can do it or HAS already done it.


Regardless of all this it doesn't change the FACT OF THE MATTER.

some people want the WARRIOR class adjusted. Made an EASIER class ( you can't get around that easier word no matter how HARD you try).

Others prefer the class AS IT.


You guys make it appear like this is some Worldview we discussing.....


ONE SIDE: "CHANGE IT MAKE IT EASIER PLEASE"
ANOTHER SIDE: "LEAVE IT ALONE WE LIKE IT AS IT"

How can you say " your side is 'wrong' ? ". HOW can you be wrong for preferring the game as is??? WRONG??!

[javid]

You're just as bad if not worse Javid so do everyone a favor and take a brick to your hands.
kthx

you want to support your claim?? b/c I can link a butt load of his threads and adds and is vitriol. And now for calling him out on this nonsense I'm "just as bad if not WORSE"?? Where have I belittled people base on their ideas? demoralized their intelligence and berated their character on the account that they disagree with me?? PLease... show me so I may introspective gauge my forum behavior.


Seriously.... some people.... please don't ignore my request link my WORST so we can see how much of an ASS I really am.

[Dhex]

Some of the responses in this thread...

[javid]

^this..... They put it better

Berserk with a smart healer is marginally better than FoF. Esuna HEALER...ESUNA....WArriors need it.

Fight or Flight: effective 10% dmg bonus
Berserk: effective (with smart healer) 11%** dmg bonus ( Berserk does change attack power; but how attack power relates to dmg is yet unknown; however assuming linearity : Att(n)= Dmg(n); 1.5*Att(n)= 1.5*Dmg(n) )


Nevertheless; Fight or Flight is less hassle and the "EASIER" skill (I myself prefer it to berserk overall; BUT NOT SITUATIONAL; which is the main reason bersker is used- to max IB)

[PessimiStick]

50% Attack Power is absolutely not 50% damage, FYI. It's weaker than you're estimating.

[Viridiana]

So, Javid, your defence is essentially "I want to be carried, because my class is bad and I want the healers to work for it."

Why should the rest of the community cater to that?

[Dhex]

@Javid

Putting more stress on a role that's already dealing with less margin for error due to the mechanics of Warrior being reactive mitigation is not a solution or a good argument - WAR is viable when it has a talented group that can compensate and make it work.

I think it's disingenuous* to expect your party to compensate for a weakness in the mechanics of your class - a weakness that is in no way directly mirrored in your corresponding tank role; Paladin.

I think it's unfair to new players that selected Warrior based on cool and dazzling armor at the character creation; it takes until their first dungeon (lv15) for them to figure out they fill a tank role. Then it takes another 35 levels to find out that their tank is often relegated to being OT or a more difficult, and demanding MT that requires special melded gear and reaching specific stat caps to be mathematically less effective compared to a Paladin in the same situations.

That's core fundamental imbalance.