MVP and Vote Kick.. Try to break it!

[Richiealvian]

So with those 2 systems coming, maybe we can get an idea of how many broken stuff we can do and how SE can fix those issues. We should probably conjure up a list which consists of everything that's abusable with these 2 systems, and with the solutions! For all it's worth, it might give SE ideas..

Vote Kick:

• Kick one-two random DFer when running with FC/premade(Solution: ???)
• Kick someone near the end (Solution: Prevent kicks during/after final boss fight?)
• Kick someone watching cutscenes (Solution: ???)
• Kick someone before chests (Solution: ???)

MVP:

• Threaten to do nothing if not voted MVP(granted, you can lie..but i think this behavior itself if arise is very inappropriate)
• Promise to vote one another, and someone lie
• Not really how to break it, but might discourage FC/Premade groupings

Thoughts anyone?

Thanks for the suggestions guys! I'll put up a list here for what people have said.

Suggestions people made:
Vote Kick:
- Have cooldowns for kick. Would be a good idea, but still abusable cause well, some people are that special.
- Have kick limits daily. Again, it's not impossible but I think the chance of getting 3-4 "bad' groups in a row is not impossible.
- Vote to skip cutscenes - Sounds like a fair idea except that it really makes a player that likes to watch cutscenes sad.. There's a very high chance someone went with a premade 6-7 group and missing one person. I'm torn on this, because it can be argued that if one person wants to watch CS while the other 7 doesn't it might be considered selfish. I am however on the opinion that cutscenes may be watched when it's on the instance, because immersion etc.
- First-timers to any dungeon (players who have not completed it yet) cannot be kicked unless they are AFK/disconnected. This is good! Although the "very" bad apples whose life exists to make others harder (for example, doing barely enough not to be seen as AFK, taking super slow time during cutscenes e.g. 15 minutes for one scene) I think most people will want their first run to be smooth.
- No kicks during combat, no kicks directly after a boss is downed & loot is being rolled on, and no kicks after final boss has been defeated. Hmm, what about let's say kicks before the tonberry king? I agree this is a good idea, but still mildly abuseable.
- A dungeon party has a cooldown on successive kicks. Seems like a good idea. No daily limits, but timer restriction for successive kicks.
- Replacements for kicked players must be drawn from the random Duty Finder pool. Manual invites to specific characters are only possible if someone leaves voluntarily, or was AFK/disconnected. Really good idea! I think this will prevent players that on purpose wants to kick someone near the end to help their friend pass something.
- The penalty for abandoning a DF group increases with each group you abandon per day. Penalty for leaving a group that includes a first-timer is also increased. I think this one is a bit harsh as it is. It would probably encourage people to start witch hunting someone who contributed the least or made the most mistakes and pressure him/her to leave first or just vote kick him/her.
- Someone told me that in WoW, they implemented a system where players who were manually grouped together before entering DF were collectively counted as one "vote." This would be good if there's many people and groups come as chunks of people instead of like 4-2-2, but let's say you went as an honest group of 3 and you meet "That guy" which automatically gets impossible to votekick because you only have one vote?


MVP:
- Restrict amount of maximum MVP votes you can get in a day(what would happen if person is capped? prompt to vote another player?)
- The biggest flaw i can see with the MVP system is that certain roles will just get ignored. I suspect that Tanks will receive a high percentage of the MVPs for doing simple things like marking mobs. What can someone in a DPS role offer to set them apart from the other DPS in the party? This is one concern as well, but I guess tanks would deserve it because they are a class that is low in amount? But I can see other things stemming from this such as favouring a healer, or an amazingly geared DPS regardless of how they play.
- Only thing I dont like about vote-kick is when there is a majority of same-guild "voters" taking the advantage and being an ass to anyone that joins. Don't worry, if you go premade there's no MVP! I think this is to encourage the use of DF.


Let me know if there's anything I miss! Surprisingly, there's very few concerns about the MVP system, although the concerns we have now are actually quite valid (some classes being more noteworthy than others, although everyone has its own role)

[coffeepotz]

Do wanna get suspended? This isn't beta...

[Zantetsuken]

If MVP rate-up notification doesn't show up until you exit dungeon (and that's how it should operate) it'll be hard to abuse. After all, you'll never know until it's too late.

Also, MVP has been confirmed to only work on cross-server ppl.


Kick should have cooldown (kicked player gets a 60sec countdown -- or they can leave immediately), it should be unavailable once final boss chamber is entered, and all loot items should be auto-distributed when a kick happens.

With these steps, abuse should be greatly reduced.

[ashikenshin]

also if you run with 2 friends you cannot kick the DF random you get.

[Seraphi]

Easiest way to prevent cutscene drama is to do it like GW1. Everyone in the party needs to vote to skip, and votes are anonymous. Either that, or a "Story Mode" checkbox in DF.

I think the timer on a second vote kick should be lengthy, like 10+ minutes. There shouldn't be a reason to be vote kicking several people more often than that. If you have multiple people in your group that are a problem to warrant multiple kicks, you should probably leave the group entirely.

The vote "during/after boss fight" could be fixed by not allowing votes during combat, and adding a cooldown to the vote kick after you exit combat. The cooldown for this would need to be longer than the time out for loot distribution.

In regards to discouraging FC grouping, they could put a "cap" on how many MVP points you can acquire in one day, similar to tomes.

These are just some ideas off the top of my head.

edit: I understand that some of these things add tedium (wait times), but what would a FF MMO be without tedium?

Also, why am I in my THM fate gear?

[Menubrea]

Do wanna get suspended? This isn't beta...

What?

It's just a discussion related to potential shortcomings of the features mentioned.

[OrganizationXIll]

This is what I think should be the rules and will be "solutions" for your cons for the kick function.

1) You have to have 75% of the votes. If its a four man dungeon it has to be unanimous; in an eight man, 6 out of the 8 are required.
2) New players cannot be kicked no matter what. Their name doesn't appear in the kick list.
3) You only get 3 kicks a day. That way it limits what the elitist will vote for.
4) If you get kicked you are warned. Twice in a day you are locked for 15 minutes. Three times an hour. On the fourth time you are locked out until a set time per region. (EX: 8:00 am PST)
5) If you kick someone you have the option to leave a highly censored message 25 characters or less that are visible on the Duty Finder screen of the kicked player until a check box is marked. Any locked out time (see above) doesn't start until this check box is checked.

EDIT:

@OrganizationXIll: another time a first timer fall with a group of elitist jerk that kick him out of the dungeon because he want to see him CS, with no luck him second group is the same, with no luck the poor soul fall again with a group like this for the third and fourth time... he get lock simply for trying to enjoy the game.

i think the concern they have are about this. the tool in itself is not bad, but how the people will use it can lead to some huge trouble.

How many times do you really think they will have 6 or more when they don't have 8? Probably a quarter of the time if that. The fact is if they are elitist enough to have 6 they will probably have 2 more friends. If not then they probably wont have the 75% they need. Also, all the while this guy you are referring to would be the worlds most unlucky guy to get in those groups twice let alone 4 times. It will happen twice in a row very rarely, but beyond that? If they aren't doing anything wrong then the majority of the community will just leave them be since they plan on running the dungeon another 10ish times more to get the cap of 300. They wont want to waste one of their 3 votes on a guy that is legitimately trying to do the dungeon and is just bad. They will want to save them for trolls.

[coffeepotz]

What?

It's just a discussion related to potential shortcomings of the features mentioned.

So with those 2 systems coming, maybe we can get an idea of how many broken stuff we can do...

I was reading it as "Lets make a list of how to abuse the system." After reading how some people were VERY against vote kick, I was thinking OP was planning on actually trying all these things in game.

[silentwindfr]

@seraphi: about the cut scene, imagine a first timer get into Castrum with a full group of Speedrunner... he will be forced to to skip the cutscene since he will be alone at say no.

the only solution against the drame over the cutscene is to make a option for first timer/speedrunner. but it will lead to the fact that first timer will be left out. i still think that doing Speedrun with DF must be considered as griefing. with the 2.1 with the new message board for make a group inside your own server, they have no reason to use the DF for do the speedrun.

@OrganizationXIll: another time a first timer fall with a group of elitist jerk that kick him out of the dungeon because he want to see him CS, with no luck him second group is the same, with no luck the poor soul fall again with a group like this for the third and fourth time... he get lock simply for trying to enjoy the game.

i think the concern they have are about this. the tool in itself is not bad, but how the people will use it can lead to some huge trouble.

[oda]

The biggest flaw i can see with the MVP system is that certain roles will just get ignored. I suspect that Tanks will receive a high percentage of the MVPs for doing simple things like marking mobs. What can someone in a DPS role offer to set them apart from the other DPS in the party? What about players that perform their jobs perfectly but don't say a word while running the dungeon? I think the intent of the feature is admirable but it will be nearly impossible to implement in a way that is fair to everyone in the group.

This wouldn't be a huge issue if the reward was just bonus gil or tokens, but it has been stated that these will be unique rewards that are only available via this system.