Solution to WAR problem is to nerf PLD

[Hachiko]

Why is everybody saying that nerfing isn't a solution? If people are accomplishing something in an unintended way, they usually fix it so it can't be done. If they just keep buffing classes instead of nerfing them, then the content will just get easier and easier. It is MUCH easier to apply a minor nerf to one class than it is to buff another, then be forced to make the content harder to match.

I think there are 4 reasons:

1) Coil is the only endgame content they have. If it was much harder (i.e. if PLD died as quickly as WAR does) it would be virtually impossible in Darklight gear - AFAIK you can't double WAR tank any bosses in coil. They want people to not complain about content being impossible.

2) It's doable but still challenging for PLD. People aren't really breezing through the content as double PLD, so to some degree it's not like it's too easy that it really necessitates nerfing.

3) A lot of groups already have several allagan drops and ilvl 90 pieces already. If they made it drastically harder by nerfing PLD down to where WAR are, or even closer to them (and it would be a drastic nerf, not minor), then it would basically close out all up and coming groups from going to coil, while the ones who geared there already would be the only ones who got to continue doing the content, which would feel unfair.

4) Because nerfs are socially expensive. They would be losing a lot of goodwill by nerfing PLD when people have dumped so much effort (mythology) into playing the job.

[peaches]

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A lot of what you say makes sense, as long as by buffing the Warrior the Paladin doesn't fall behind, and as a result have to buff Paladin because they don't want to nerf, thus making content easier.

I haven't got to Coil yet (I seriously don't want to farm AK and WP 100 times to gear up for Coil), so my opinion is probably slightly skewed here, but this is my opinion at least - I think that most of Coils SHOULD be nearly impossible currently. With them releasing CT soon with lower tier gear than Coils, it will essentially make Coils useless to people who have got iLvl 90 gear. Personally, I think having iLvl 80 gear should be necessary to get the iLvl 90 gear, making CT actually useful to everyone. But that's a bit off topic for this thread I suppose.

[CurlyBruce]

Words

Take what SE says with a grain of salt. If they had done any testing whatsoever they would have known that PLD could survive past 3 stacks easily just by using Rampart let alone the multitude of other abilities they have. Shit, even WAR can survive 3 Stacks long enough for the DDs to burn it down or pop a slime. If we weren't meant to survive 3 stacks Caduceus, are we also not supposed to survive 4 Stacks Dreadnought in Turn 4? I'm glad they are finally admitting WAR has issues but trying to save face by saying it's because PLD is too strong on Turn 1 when they do the same thing on Turn 4 is absurd.

[Eightbit]

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A big thing is once the classes are nailed down it wouldn't be hard for SE to continue to release content scaled to be as hard for both classes. Adding harder turns isn't an impossible endeavor. Also game is still new and SE is still learning it's development strides for the game and player base.

[Brannigan]

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Pretty much everything that's been beaten in Coil can be done with 2 warriors. Even when not feeding Caduceus slimes after split, my friend's (relatively) fresh 50 warrior was able to tank turn 1 easily. Turn 2 doesn't do enough damage to threaten either tank. Turn 4 would be difficult with two warriors if you were using the common strategy that 2 pld teams use, but if you just change up how you handle the last 2 waves, then 2 warriors could do it for sure.

[Hachiko]

Pretty much everything that's been beaten in Coil can be done with 2 warriors. Even when not feeding Caduceus slimes after split, my friend's (relatively) fresh 50 warrior was able to tank turn 1 easily. Turn 2 doesn't do enough damage to threaten either tank. Turn 4 would be difficult with two warriors if you were using the common strategy that 2 pld teams use, but if you just change up how you handle the last 2 waves, then 2 warriors could do it for sure.

I want to see evidence of this. I also doubt your friend's fresh WAR was able to easily tank Cad split unless by fresh you mean "full set of darklight." Even then, it's not the split part it's the pre-split part that WAR really taxes the healers on.

I've never seen any videos or even screenshots of dual warriors doing any binding coil content.

A lot of what you say makes sense, as long as by buffing the Warrior the Paladin doesn't fall behind, and as a result have to buff Paladin because they don't want to nerf, thus making content easier.

WAR is so far behind paladin it would take an astronomical number of buffs to even have them on the same playing field. It's really unlikely that even SE would be that oblivious to balance.

[RapBreon]

I think there are 4 reasons:

1) Coil is the only endgame content they have. If it was much harder (i.e. if PLD died as quickly as WAR does) it would be virtually impossible in Darklight gear - AFAIK you can't double WAR tank any bosses in coil. They want people to not complain about content being impossible.2) It's doable but still challenging for PLD. People aren't really breezing through the content as double PLD, so to some degree it's not like it's too easy that it really necessitates nerfing.

2) It's doable but still challenging for PLD. People aren't really breezing through the content as double PLD, so to some degree it's not like it's too easy that it really necessitates nerfing.

3) A lot of groups already have several allagan drops and ilvl 90 pieces already. If they made it drastically harder by nerfing PLD down to where WAR are, or even closer to them (and it would be a drastic nerf, not minor), then it would basically close out all up and coming groups from going to coil, while the ones who geared there already would be the only ones who got to continue doing the content, which would feel unfair.

4) Because nerfs are socially expensive. They would be losing a lot of goodwill by nerfing PLD when people have dumped so much effort (mythology) into playing the job.

1) I don't agree, the first two bosses 100% don't require you to lean on PLD's to get through them. T4 would be an issue, but it would be a good issue, people would actually have to come up with another way to get past double Dreads (which my group doesn't do anyway), making this fight hard like it should be. Rather than everybody just staring and Twintania trying to work out Twisters and being the only real wall.

Pretty sure the first two turns would could be double WAR tanked, everybody would just have to do their job better (aka no fucking around with the slimes, stack swapping would have to be tighter, etc. like it should be.).

2) Besides T4, I do nothing. Nerfing the tanks would only make everyone else work harder to compensate. Actually engaging with the mechanics perhaps?

3) I agree, but I blame SE for not releasing CT (or pushing release back a bit) like they should've. Though talented or coordinated groups would still make progress without CT loot. Considering the circumstances though, this would be I assume their best reason for buffing WARs over nerfing PLDs so as to not destroy long term interest in their game.

4) They are socially expensive, of that there is no doubt.

Morello (LoL lead dev) did say something profoundly wise for a dev. Sometimes players just don't know what they want, you have to find the times when the player base is right and wrong. Appease them when they're correct, paying lip service and when they're wrong, explain why and let them get over it (paraphrasing :P). Seriously, the only reason people hate nerfs if because their 'feels' get damaged, even when they're being brought down to a comparatively similar level.

There are more frames of reference than another class that does the same role. And if they take a stance of always buffing over nerfing (not saying this will be the case), they're committing to power-creep which will only make designing encounters in the future harder for them.

Essentially, the average player almost assuredly lacks the foresight/ability to make good game changes. Because they can't see past their own gaming experience. I think these forums demonstrate this concept beyond any reasonable doubt.

I'm not saying you personally agree or with the points you made, merely giving you a sample of why those points shouldn't be used to hold nerfing hostage.

Even then, it's not the split part it's the pre-split part that WAR really taxes the healers on.

Uhmmmmmm that goes completely contrary to what my healers tell me. Pretty sure if you're doing slimes properly, one Cad is kind of a joke (yes I know he gets a determ de-buff on split).