Solution to WAR problem is to nerf PLD

[PiedPiper]

The only reason you see 5 - 5.2 k pld and 7k WARs in there is because WAR are forced to get more gear than pally to do titan (and we put all our spare stats in Vit). There is nothing wrong with having to get more gear, but there is something wrong with PLD not needing to get gear. Nerf PLD.

If you can't handle a 4.5k Mountain buster then you really need to learn to play.

What pally has ever taken 4.5k from MB? Even on night one of progression I only took 3k. Maybe if I was sword oath tanking, but that would be as silly as warrior not using defiance. Also, no tank has that much control over what happens to them after a hit of that size.

The only content I haven't done with WAR are coils and titan, for everything else I didn't seem to really have any major issues.

THIS. THIS is the problem. Yes, warrior can be carried through titan. Congrats, you took hits and your healers went god mode, cool. Why? The fight would have been much easier with a paladin.

Coils: Find me ONE video of warior tanking Cad from turn 1. Just one video. I have not been able to find a single warrior tank vid from turn one final boss. I'm pretty confident a sch with several ilvl90 pieces might be able to carry a similarly geared warrior, but a ilvl 70 healer and ilvl 70 pld can do it just fine. Why make it harder than it needs to be? You see, once you reach this content, the problems with warrior show. Its effective hp is too low, its self heals are too infrequent. So many warriors come on here and say "I can heal myself for a billion once every two minutes." Cool story, what are you doing for those other 119 seconds? Getting wrecked and killed? Awesome.

Don't get it twisted. Its not like paladins think this is a good thing. As peopel have mentioned, the history of the game has been feast or famine for tanking class viability. Only rarely have both classes been workable. This isn't fair to either class and it shouldn't be the case that players are calling for nerfs to the class that currently works out of spite. We should all want both classes to actually work.

Yes, warrior can tank anything pre-titan, some of those better than a pld. THIS COULD NOT MATTER LESS. All pre-titan content can be tanked by titan-egi (I'm not kidding, I've been in both castrum and pratoreum groups that did this for the lulz). It is only when we get to end game of titan hm and coils that it matters what people are playing and how they are playing, and it is then that we see the problems with warriors sustain.


To the person that mentioned warrior + scholar. Yes and no. Yes, a sch will help a warrior. But they would help a paladin more, actually. You see, for the time that warrior has +15% healing recieved, it is true that sch shields are 15% more. But, paladins are always taking 20% less damage, so its actually a 5% advantage per mp spent by the sch.

Ex: Adloquim crit for 1k.
On paladin: Applies a 2k shield, because of shield oath, absorbs 2.4k damage.
On warrior: Applies a 2.3k shield, absorbs 2.3k damage.
Advantage: Paladin by 100 damage.

If you REALLLLLY want to get into self healing as "making up" that 100 points, just remember, should I choose, I can chain cast a 8% effective hp buff on myself. once I run out of mana, I can still continue to cast it every other gcd by using a combo. By the time you reach the piont in fights like cad and titan where this woudl be useful, pld will have plenty of threat to not worry about loosing threat. I have done this, largely out of boredom, or because a healer died. Can you heal/shield yourself for 8% every 3 seconds?

Please, please, please buff warrior. Grant them an aura that is a pernament +20% to healing received. This will increase their own heals and grant them the same effective hp as paladin, only in a different way. Paladin reduces up front, warrior receives more on the back end. This is also how our healers are currently balanced: SCH reduces up front, WHM restores more on the back end.

[astrobear]

THIS. THIS is the problem. Yes, warrior can be carried through titan. Congrats, you took hits and your healers went god mode, cool. Why? The fight would have been much easier with a paladin.

Coils: Find me ONE video of warior tanking Cad from turn 1. Just one video. I have not been able to find a single warrior tank vid from turn one final boss. I'm pretty confident a sch with several ilvl90 pieces might be able to carry a similarly geared warrior, but a ilvl 70 healer and ilvl 70 pld can do it just fine. Why make it harder than it needs to be? You see, once you reach this content, the problems with warrior show. Its effective hp is too low, its self heals are too infrequent. So many warriors come on here and say "I can heal myself for a billion once every two minutes." Cool story, what are you doing for those other 119 seconds? Getting wrecked and killed? Awesome.

well this BC from a warroir view. he does tank cad for a bit (off tank?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8EVwkOd2js

and turn 2 if you are curious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX8jKn6MiT0

im not taking side on this issue as my war tank is still lvl 30 (im trying to lvl my pgl to lvl 30 before i proceed to leveling war)

[CurlyBruce]

well this BC from a warroir view. he does tank cad for a bit (off tank?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8EVwkOd2js

and turn 2 if you are curious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX8jKn6MiT0

im not taking side on this issue as my war tank is still lvl 30 (im trying to lvl my pgl to lvl 30 before i proceed to leveling war)

The WAR in Turn 1 is tanking the split Caduceus which does pretty much half as much damage as the full Caduceus and even then at around 3-4 Stacks he gets absolutely destroyed while the PLD remains fine (both snakes buff at pretty much the same time after split). Basically this just shows what we've been saying all along, that WAR can do content but it's a giant handicap when you could have just brought a PLD and done it easier/safer/better. Also there is no way a WAR could have tanked the remaining snake after they killed the first one, there is a reason they burned the WAR one down first.

As far as Turn 2, due to the mechanics of the fights you aren't really ever tanking the boss for more than 30-40 seconds at a time so survival is more on your healers keeping up with the burst for that time frame. As long as your party members are on the ball with keeping High Voltage silenced and passing Allagan Rot the only real threat either tank faces is getting hit by a triple Ballast due to bad positioning while still having the Vulnerability Debuffs. Also should a tank die a PLD could Hallowed Ground and give enough time for the second tank to raise back up and voke it off before stacks start increasing again.

[Ehayte]

I don't know anything about Coil, but I've done Ifrit and AK and CM and all that lower-end end-game stuff.

I'd LOVE to see something like this happen, however I think it is too much change and I would never expect it:

- Warriors get Bloodbath as a passive trait all the time at level 50. It stays @ 25% of damage done healed, but its a perma buff that is attached to Defiance. This would both improve viability, and add enmity generation from overheals (if I understand the self-heal mechanics correctly).
- Paladins get Spirits Within taken away, and instead, they get an insta-cast, 50% of mana pool cost, 45sec CD others only heal with a rather large potency. Or you could make that a medium potency group heal that discludes the PLD, or even takes some of the PLD's health.

It would let the WAR come up to where PLD are in terms of tanking, take away some DPS from PLDs so that WARs are the clear winner in that category, and it will add some more thinking to PLDs. WARs would be solely focused on keeping aggro and healing themselves, while PLDs can use their OPed CDs and mitigation to easy-mode tank, while providing strategic healing to the group in times of need, while taking some of the pressure off healers because the fight will be longer with less DPS coming from the PLD.

[Cabalabob]

The WAR gets absolutely destroyed while the PLD remains fine

this just shows what we've been saying all along, that WAR can do content but it's a giant handicap when you could have just brought a PLD and done it easier/safer/better.

What this thread has been saying is that the solution to war tanking is to make paladin worse.

WAR= struggling, PLD=fine
Solution: change PLD to struggling rather than buff WAR to fine... Logic!

I don't think anyone would argue WAR would become too overpowered if it got a buff. But what is being asked for is a nerf to PLD not a buff to WAR.

If one job is bad making other jobs bad so they can be on the same level of badness as the bad job just makes the game bad.

[CurlyBruce]

What this thread has been saying is that the solution to war tanking is to make paladin worse.

I meant what we've been saying in the other threads in general. I don't want to see PLD nerfed, it's fine how it is. People seem to get the wrong idea that just because PLDs are easier to manage than WAR that makes the content faceroll easy. Coil and such are still hard with a PLD, they are just more manageable. With a PLD if everyone does their job properly your success rate is pretty high, but with a WAR its a crapshoot. That's the biggest problem, even if everyone is doing perfect WAR tanks can still eat it should the boss decide he wants to be a dick. A PLD is reliable, a WAR is not.

[Cabalabob]

I meant what we've been saying in the other threads in general. I don't want to see PLD nerfed, it's fine how it is. People seem to get the wrong idea that just because PLDs are easier to manage than WAR that makes the content faceroll easy. Coil and such are still hard with a PLD, they are just more manageable. With a PLD if everyone does their job properly your success rate is pretty high, but with a WAR its a crapshoot. That's the biggest problem, even if everyone is doing perfect WAR tanks can still eat it should the boss decide he wants to be a dick. A PLD is reliable, a WAR is not.

That's fine then, when you said that's what we've been saying I took "we" to mean the people in this thread.

I entirely agree with a buff to WAR, personally I don't see it as a tank at all right now, in 1.x before we had colourful stickers slapped on us telling us what our job is I always looked at MRD and WAR as a DD that had the ability to tank. The problem with it in 2.0 is that they've slapped the tank sticker on it without making any major changes to the way the job is played. Essentially packaging a DD that can take a beating as a fully fledged tank. So it could really use some polishing to actually fill that role. I really see WAR's as being the job that when the tank dies they'll be the DD at the top of the hate list rather than the healer or other DD's and has the hp to hold it while the tank gets back up. But it really can't work like that when its got the tank sticker slapped on it rather than the DD sticker.

[Viridiana]

well this BC from a warroir view. he does tank cad for a bit (off tank?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8EVwkOd2js

and turn 2 if you are curious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX8jKn6MiT0

I haven't done coil yet, so I can only go off of what's in the videos. The first attempt at Cad, you hear them start to stress a bit at 4 stacks, and after the wipe you hear the WAR say outright he's surprised the healer kept him up as long as he did. Then you notice that after the first snake dies, the second one has 8 stacks, and the PLD pops Hallowed Ground. I'm fairly certain a WAR would die there.

The second video appears to be more about tank-swapping than anything (and interrupts, but that's as much a raid thing as anything). Seems like the only reason the PLD died was because a healer went down, and the PLD died during rez animation.

[Cerlic]

I haven't done coil yet, so I can only go off of what's in the videos. The first attempt at Cad, you hear them start to stress a bit at 4 stacks, and after the wipe you hear the WAR say outright he's surprised the healer kept him up as long as he did. Then you notice that after the first snake dies, the second one has 8 stacks, and the PLD pops Hallowed Ground. I'm fairly certain a WAR would die there.

the first snake never died, it recombined with the other snake after the warrior died and either combined stacks or goes straight to 8 (I'm not sure which). My group does this fight the same exact way the only main difference is our group has a SCH instead of a second WHM. Personally I think they would of had it the first time if the healer on the WAR would of utilized Stoneskin.

[Viridiana]

the first snake never died, it recombined with the other snake after the warrior died and either combined stacks or goes straight to 8 (I'm not sure which). My group does this fight the same exact way the only main difference is our group has a SCH instead of a second WHM. Personally I think they would of had it the first time if the healer on the WAR would of utilized Stoneskin.

Looks like death throes to me.

But, yeah, they re-merge or what have you. I'm assuming they combine stacks. Last reported numbers in the linked vid are 2&3; when the WAR retargets original it has 5, then ramps up to 8 over just a few seconds.