Solution to WAR problem is to nerf PLD

[CurlyBruce]

What this thread has been saying is that the solution to war tanking is to make paladin worse.

I meant what we've been saying in the other threads in general. I don't want to see PLD nerfed, it's fine how it is. People seem to get the wrong idea that just because PLDs are easier to manage than WAR that makes the content faceroll easy. Coil and such are still hard with a PLD, they are just more manageable. With a PLD if everyone does their job properly your success rate is pretty high, but with a WAR its a crapshoot. That's the biggest problem, even if everyone is doing perfect WAR tanks can still eat it should the boss decide he wants to be a dick. A PLD is reliable, a WAR is not.

[Cabalabob]

I meant what we've been saying in the other threads in general. I don't want to see PLD nerfed, it's fine how it is. People seem to get the wrong idea that just because PLDs are easier to manage than WAR that makes the content faceroll easy. Coil and such are still hard with a PLD, they are just more manageable. With a PLD if everyone does their job properly your success rate is pretty high, but with a WAR its a crapshoot. That's the biggest problem, even if everyone is doing perfect WAR tanks can still eat it should the boss decide he wants to be a dick. A PLD is reliable, a WAR is not.

That's fine then, when you said that's what we've been saying I took "we" to mean the people in this thread.

I entirely agree with a buff to WAR, personally I don't see it as a tank at all right now, in 1.x before we had colourful stickers slapped on us telling us what our job is I always looked at MRD and WAR as a DD that had the ability to tank. The problem with it in 2.0 is that they've slapped the tank sticker on it without making any major changes to the way the job is played. Essentially packaging a DD that can take a beating as a fully fledged tank. So it could really use some polishing to actually fill that role. I really see WAR's as being the job that when the tank dies they'll be the DD at the top of the hate list rather than the healer or other DD's and has the hp to hold it while the tank gets back up. But it really can't work like that when its got the tank sticker slapped on it rather than the DD sticker.

[Sebastien]

I actually think that OP is probably correct, and here's why. According to Yoshi, SqEnx's intent was that no one would be able to clear Bahamut's coil with the gear currently available. He believed they would need Crystal Tower gear. The fact that people were able to clear through the first four turns so quickly (making Crystal Tower mostly obsolete for them in the process) suggests that things were easier than intended.

That all leads me to conclude that PLD may have been too strong. However, I don't think the disparity between PLD and WAR is as great as some people believe. It just seems like, based on Yoshi's intent, the difficulty of tanking endgame content with WAR is actually the intended difficulty.

[CurlyBruce]

I actually think that OP is probably correct, and here's why. According to Yoshi, SqEnx's intent was that no one would be able to clear Bahamut's coil with the gear currently available. He believed they would need Crystal Tower gear. The fact that people were able to clear through the first four turns so quickly (making Crystal Tower mostly obsolete for them in the process) suggests that things were easier than intended.

Well Yoshida said he didn't expect more than 100 people to beat coil before 2.1 and given that Turn 5 is a giant kick to the testicles I don't find this hard to believe. The major problem isn't gear because you can save up and buy relic gear without ever stepping foot inside the coil. Crystal Tower is largely irrelevant to most people who have been at cap for a while and only have one job they want to gear out since they could have saved up plenty of Mythology by this point. You can do the first few turns of Coil with a WAR in just DL+Relic Weapon, it's just harder and leaves pretty much zero breathing room for freak occurrences.

[MomoOG]

Its pretty obvious that War is balanced for the content we currently have and that Pld is over-tuned for the current content (hint we are not supposed to be able to do Coil yet). Pld needs to be brought down not War brought up. People arguing otherwise just want a face roll game.

[Hachiko]

Its pretty obvious that War is balanced for the content we currently have and that Pld is over-tuned for the current content (hint we are not supposed to be able to do Coil yet). Pld needs to be brought down not War brought up. People arguing otherwise just want a face roll game.

I have a hard time believing this line of thought.

First off, because all of the other classes don't have that much of a problem meeting the requirements to do coil. the Damage Dealers can all meet the enrage/soft enrage timer, the healers have no real problems keeping anyone alive from incidental damage or keeping PLD tanks up. The only Job that is having a hard time is WAR. While having an overtuned tank can have risidual effects on the DPS requirements and healing requirements, it isn't the only factor to consider.

Second, Paladin is an EXTREMELY easy class to balance a game around. Everything they have is flat or passive and it all scales with mob damage. Their rotation is very simple as well, which eliminates variances due to playstyle as well. You can easily calculate exactly how much dmg a PLD will take over time when they properly use their cooldowns and skills. For a WAR it's much more difficult to calculate, and even more difficult to execute properly. For this reason, it seems more likely that they messed up the balance on WAR and not PLD.

[CurlyBruce]

Its pretty obvious that War is balanced for the content we currently have and that Pld is over-tuned for the current content (hint we are not supposed to be able to do Coil yet). Pld needs to be brought down not War brought up. People arguing otherwise just want a face roll game.

Hint: If we weren't supposed to do Coil yet they would not have added it the game. Hint: You can still do coil with DL WAR, it just requires a bit of luck with bosses not going nuts on you at a bad time. Hint: Crystal Tower will not help WAR in coil because you can already get higher tier gear from Mythology or Coil itself.

[MomoOG]

Hint: If we weren't supposed to do Coil yet they would not have added it the game. Hint: You can still do coil with DL WAR, it just requires a bit of luck with bosses not going nuts on you at a bad time. Hint: Crystal Tower will not help WAR in coil because you can already get higher tier gear from Mythology or Coil itself.

Hint: Maybe you should find the posts by Yoshi himself saying exactly what I have said. They thought Crystal Tower would have been ready but it wasn't. I'm not making things yup or speculating like you are. These are facts from the developers themselves.

[Stryker]

Hint: Maybe you should find the posts by Yoshi himself saying exactly what I have said. They thought Crystal Tower would have been ready but it wasn't. I'm not making things yup or speculating like you are. These are facts from the developers themselves.

Yeah it's not ready, so we don't know what changes are going to be made. They could have gear drop for War that puts it on the same level as PLD. Tweaking a game that's only in the first month of launch leads to huge problems later on. By adjusting it now for the current content, then they'll have to keep adjusting other classes to meet that content.

The whole point of class balance is that throughout the game it says even, otherwise they ping pong with buffs and nerfs. I agree War needs some tweaks, but to demand them right now is stupid since the game is still in its infancy. But to demand a nerf to PLD is also dumb. Nerfs are meant when the mechanics of a game largely favor a class. Mechanics, not play style. They are not one and the same.

[Hachiko]

Yeah it's not ready, so we don't know what changes are going to be made. They could have gear drop for War that puts it on the same level as PLD. Tweaking a game that's only in the first month of launch leads to huge problems later on. By adjusting it now for the current content, then they'll have to keep adjusting other classes to meet that content.

They can't have gear drop for WAR that puts them on the same level as PLD though, unless they completely throw balance to the wind. In order for WAR self heals to come close to being on the same level as PLD mitigation for endgame, WAR's would have to be doing ~250-300 DPS themselves.

Unless there is an ilvl 80 axe that has 92 damage on it that drops in CT, there is no way WAR is even going to approach being on the same level as a PLD even when adding in CT gear.