Can we go back to using tomes to get relics?

[Masha_Awandah]

The relics take me the same amount of long term grind than they used to be in previous expansions (ARR excepted, they really pushed it with the og atmas and books). But instead of working on one weapon over a long time, I'm working on them all because the 20+ relics now take similar amount of required resources than a single one required before. That's the only difference and I can understand someone would argue that it diminishes the values of relics or whatever. I don't have a huge opinion for one or the other on this.

I won't deny that some of the older relics were just boring spamming of the same duties until you had the required amount of X thing. I understand why people would hate those. But those steps had something that tome grinds in general (including older ones like HW) are lacking. And that something is concentrated effort toward completing the weapon.

Tomes are dropped by the vast majority of battle content this game has. That means that as long as I'm fighting something while level 100, it counts as progress toward the relic. The same cannot be said for older ones like Eureka weapons. You want one of those? Then head to Eureka and start farming. You can't passively get those by just doing a roulette or a hunt mark.

My point is, the effort you put into acquiring the weapon is what gives it it's value. No effort because the tomes are just falling into your hands all the time means no feeling of satisfaction. To me, at least.

[AmiableApkallu]

Except all that really means is "It's supposed to be {a weapon for which there is a singular step that forces grinding content the devs otherwise couldn't get enough people to play instead of whatever tf they'd want to do}, not {a weapon that you can complete however tf you want}."

So, I re-checked what the vendors in Solution Nine have on offer. If you're looking for a weapon, you have to engage with one of:

• Ultimate
• Savage Raid
• Extreme
• Normal Raid (for the tokens! they're not just tomestone weapons...)

If none of those appeal to you, you're left with crafted weapons and... the current relic weapons.

So, in that context, I'm not opposed to a large degree of flexibility in acquiring the currency for a so-called relic weapon. But for the sake of gameplay, I do still feel that in order to earn the currency, you either need to have the previous-stage of the relic equipped (if you want the weapon for a job, then actually play the job) or otherwise engage with the PvE ecosystem in a glancing way (no current PvP, because the PvP job kits are completely disconnected from their PvE counterparts, and PvE gear has no bearing on PvP gameplay).

[Masha_Awandah]

So, I re-checked what the vendors in Solution Nine have on offer. If you're looking for a weapon, you have to engage with one of:

• Ultimate
• Savage Raid
• Extreme
• Normal Raid (for the tokens! they're not just tomestone weapons...)

If none of those appeal to you, you're left with crafted weapons and... the current relic weapons.

So, in that context, I'm not opposed to a large degree of flexibility in acquiring the currency for a so-called relic weapon. But for the sake of gameplay, I do still feel that in order to earn the currency, you either need to have the previous-stage of the relic equipped (if you want the weapon for a job, then actually play the job) or otherwise engage with the PvE ecosystem in a glancing way (no current PvP, because the PvP job kits are completely disconnected from their PvE counterparts, and PvE gear has no bearing on PvP gameplay).

Question, why is your first reflex to nerf relic weapons instead of making other weapons easier to get?

Older tome weapons could have their normal raid token removed so it's only 500 tomes for one. After all, those tokens stop being required when they become hunt rewards anyway, so getting rid of them when the raid is no longer current wouldn't hurt.

Bonus points, 500 is cheaper than the 1500 relic.

[AmiableApkallu]

Question, why is your first reflex to nerf relic weapons instead of making other weapons easier to get?

I said nothing about nerfing relic weapons, whether it be in acquisition or their stats. The fact that I'm not necessarily opposed to Dawntrail's current state doesn't mean I'm opposed to an ARR-style grind. The fact that I literally want the-generic-you to have the relic equipped or to at least engage with PvE is the opposite of nerfing compared to what we have in Endwalker or Dawntrail.

I'll personally do whatever I find to be fun (including the 4 of 10 ARR relics I have yet to obtain, whenever the mood suits me, and eventually the Eureka relics).

In the meantime, let me know when there's a precise, crisp definition of what a "relic weapon" is or is supposed to be.

[Canadane]

1500 tomestones for a few rocks is not fun. It was okay once. This is not okay.

[Krojack]

The current system is fine IMO. It kinda does suck for people who don't have much time to play but not much you can do about that.

Personally I think they should revamp the system and maybe go about something similar to Guild Wars 2 legendary gear. I'm referring to all the things you do to get items to make your legendary. It helps keep the open world alive.

[Valence]

I won't deny that some of the older relics were just boring spamming of the same duties until you had the required amount of X thing. I understand why people would hate those. But those steps had something that tome grinds in general (including older ones like HW) are lacking. And that something is concentrated effort toward completing the weapon.

Tomes are dropped by the vast majority of battle content this game has. That means that as long as I'm fighting something while level 100, it counts as progress toward the relic. The same cannot be said for older ones like Eureka weapons. You want one of those? Then head to Eureka and start farming. You can't passively get those by just doing a roulette or a hunt mark.

My point is, the effort you put into acquiring the weapon is what gives it it's value. No effort because the tomes are just falling into your hands all the time means no feeling of satisfaction. To me, at least.

That's what I don't get. Why would I do hunts or roulettes if not for the relics those days? Relics specifically come out when tiers are outdated and there isn't even tome gear to get anymore. Leveling has been done since month 1 of the expansion. I don't need this. If I pop a roulette or anything, I'll put genuine "effort" into running content just for the relic. Anything serious like savage reclears is a joke in tomes (when I was still raiding and if anything now that i'm casual in pve again I need more roulettes than I ever did during savage that gave me savage gear on its own), and ranked doesn't pay much either.

So the argument that I get tomes passively, I don't quite get. I get a pitiful amount passively. I guess that's still more than atmas, sure.

What do you even do roulettes or hunts for? If anything the thing I could grind forever even without the relics if I had the mental fortitude to do it would be fates because the devs have somehow decided to gate so many goodies behind bigems for ludicrous amounts and keep adding more and more even behind older expansions...

(no current PvP, because the PvP job kits are completely disconnected from their PvE counterparts, and PvE gear has no bearing on PvP gameplay).

[Kelg]

I want my game I pay a sub for to have some content. Not everything needs to be instant gratification. I'd even go further to say all relics should have been the full grind, instead of 3000 tomes after the first, so that not everyone has every single relic a year down the line. The rewards mean nothing if they are super easy and quick to get, and this is a content where a "casual" player can play a few hours a day and get a weapon in a reasonable amount of time, while still putting in the work for it.

[Masha_Awandah]

That's what I don't get. Why would I do hunts or roulettes if not for the relics those days? Relics specifically come out when tiers are outdated and there isn't even tome gear to get anymore. Leveling has been done since month 1 of the expansion. I don't need this. If I pop a roulette or anything, I'll put genuine "effort" into running content just for the relic. Anything serious like savage reclears is a joke in tomes (when I was still raiding and if anything now that i'm casual in pve again I need more roulettes than I ever did during savage that gave me savage gear on its own), and ranked doesn't pay much either.

So the argument that I get tomes passively, I don't quite get. I get a pitiful amount passively. I guess that's still more than atmas, sure.

What do you even do roulettes or hunts for? If anything the thing I could grind forever even without the relics if I had the mental fortitude to do it would be fates because the devs have somehow decided to gate so many goodies behind bigems for ludicrous amounts and keep adding more and more even behind older expansions...

Well, I don't really do hunts all that much besides occasionally killing an S rank for achievements. As for roulettes, I usually do those for my weekly 450 tomes. I still need to gear up the Aiming/Scouting/Casting roles and I like improving all my jobs, even those I don't really use all that much. That usually means Expert/Level cap/Alliance with maybe Normal for fun. Occasionally I'll do high level if I'm bored or leveling for GC seals. And then there's Frontline and CC for Series exp, achievements, etc.

Out of curiosity, if you're not doing any of this stuff, what are you doing? Genuine curiosity, not trying to start a fight or anything, just to be clear. (Having trouble trying to word it in a nicer way, sorry.)

[Yeonhee]

Snip

Not gonna lie, just going by your posts around these forums, there seems to be very little content that you are willing to do. Why should relics be made even more uninteresting for everyone just for you to get them for free because you don't want to engage in the vast majority of the content ?