TBN & WD probably wont be fundamentally changed (in 6.xx)

[ASkellington]

snip

@Archwizard beat me to it but your highlights of LD fall completely short as healers have 0 way to know how much healing is enough to not kill a DRK.

There is 0 timer on it except when you toggle the DRK in question (so no timer on the party list).
There is 0 indication that you healed enough except WD's removal
And the above doesn't even help because healing 100% =/= equal max hp like say Doom does (because I have had WD live out its entire timer and the DRK didn't die so ????? explain that)

LD needs an overhaul not number tweaks.

I can't comment on Oblation or TBN as DRK has not been touched since the start of this expansion.

But I never saw how "great" TBN was while leveling my DRK it always felt meh to me and after playing with HoC from GNB this expansion I think I feel more justified in calling it "meh" still.

[DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise]

LD fall completely short as healers have 0 way to know how much healing is enough to not kill a DRK.

There is 0 timer on it except when you toggle the DRK in question (so no timer on the party list).
There is 0 indication that you healed enough except WD's removal
And the above doesn't even help because healing 100% =/= equal max hp like say Doom does (because I have had WD live out its entire timer and the DRK didn't die so ????? explain that)

Yeah I agree I think this is the biggest issue with LD is the visibility into it, and it's strictly *HEAL* requirement.

I've had cases where I didn't even know it was active while healing and didn't quite make the 100% cause I got him pretty high up with shields. (I never saw his hp drop to 1. TB followed immediately by a stellar detonation or something)

Yeah it'd be simple to just turn it into a holmgang clone, but I think its kinda cool. Its saved me more times than it's killed me. While I think that mechanically it could be tweak to keep it's risk and reward, by tweaking numbers and letting shields count as well, it does feel half-baked, the UI does not convey to the players that "Hey.. your tank is still dead.. you are without a tank.. you are tankless.. and they are coming after you next, healer"

So I do think it *deserves* an overhaul, mostly UI, and I HOPE it does, do we really think they'd just give up and turn it into holmgang?
I for one don't think they will and I also hope they don't. I think it has the potential to be better and cooler than holmgang, but its definitely half-baked.

Edit: wanted to expand on this why I think it could be tweaked to be *better* than holmgang.
The whole point of risk and reward is that when executed properly, you are rewarded with something better that did not have any risk.
Now in theory, Holmgang is worse because it just gives you a window to both *bounce* back up to healthy levels, and LD has the *reward* of your *bounce* window not starting until you reach 1 hp.
A reward in theory alone, because the game UI does a very poor job of informing the players about wtf is going on. How much time is left, the fact that your tank is still technically dead, how much still needs to be healed.
In addition, the reward is still only theoretical because the 10 second bounce window could never truly be needed, or seen as an advantage, because of the necessity to heal 73,000 HP, they would almost certainly never reach 1 hp again during this window and still make the 100% requirement. In such a situation, they would probably die anyways immediately after cleansing the WD early, as has been pointed out.

So as I see it, the risk is VERY real, and the reward is only theoretical. And even in theory, it is flawed. They could just turn it into holmgang, sure, and that would be better I'm not in disagreeance. I just think risks and rewards are cool, and ideally WD could be made practically rewarding.
And I do honestly think that could be achieved by tweaking the numbers.

If you increase the duration, players will try to cheese with it by begging Pure Healers not to heal them quickly.

Well to me that sounds like a proper reward, for proper execution. (deservedly justified because of the risk of WD)
I'm mainly pld, and I'm about to use a dungeon example (which doesn't matter right raiders and Zenos?), but I use Hollowed Ground 2 or 3 times a typical dungeon depending on how much dps the dps do. I don't have to tell anybody about it. I don't have to coordinate with any healers that "Hey I'm gonna HG don't heal me", I don't drop to 1hp when I use it, I just use it and enjoy 10 seconds of no-downsides invulnerability.
The downside of HG is that its got the longest cooldown, so in theory I can't use it as often. In practice, it is by far and away my most used invul, because it requires zero coordination or communication.

And thats what I think LD & WD have the potential to be and SHOULD be, is require the most coordination, have a higher risk (which is already there), and be *rewarded* by being the most rewarding invul when executed well.
And I'm not saying that it is right now. It definitely isn't. What I'm saying is that it could be made to be more rewarding by tweaking number as it already is, and hopefully later on get a UI that actually communicates what is going on.

Edit 2: I used a dungeon example for how a longer (say, 15 second) WD could be exploited as the most rewarding invul by staying at 1hp , but a 15 second WD would also help a lot in raids for those who would use it for TB. That seems to be what everyone is concerned with, just the ability to eat a TB and move on. Well, 15 seconds .. ezpz

[DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise]

There is no variation of Living Dead where the numbers can be adjusted to make it more balanced. If you reduce the 100% HP requirement, healers will easily clear the "unkillable" component of the skill tied to such drawback.

This kinda makes it sound like the options are only 1% or 100%, with such boolean absolutes. Surely there is a point at which it is not too easy. If there isn't, then it stands to reason that 100% is also too easy, no?

[Archwizard]

Well to me that sounds like a proper reward, for proper execution. (deservedly justified because of the risk of WD)

Except that all invulns have now been balanced around 10 second durations, even Holmgang. Not to mention that having a job with a longer-length invuln would still warrant adjustment to its other mitigation skills to compensate.

Also, "let's bank on the risk, but put off the vital UI element to gauge the reward" is the definition of putting the cart before the horse here. Even in your ideal scenario, the only surefire way to game it is to have a WHM on standby with Bene, so little has changed in DRK's favor.

This kinda makes it sound like the options are only 1% or 100%, with such boolean absolutes.

Considering that after 10 seconds you are either dead or alive, boolean attributes are warranted. You don't get credit for 90% healing, you're still dead.
This is especially evident since we now have an expansion where a job like SGE cannot clear WD without bursting multiple CDs and resources -- which defeats the point of using an invuln in the first place -- assuming they still have any by the time WD procs.

"But WAR and GNB still need healing for theirs too!" They can contribute to the self-healing requirements of their invulns. Not only can DRK not, but the way WD is structured, it wouldn't want to.

[HyoMinPark]

Also, "let's bank on the risk, but put off the vital UI element to gauge the reward" is the definition of putting the cart before the horse here.
Considering that after 10 seconds you are either dead or alive, boolean attributes are warranted. You don't get credit for 90% healing, you're still dead.
This is especially evident since we now have an expansion where a job like SGE cannot clear WD without bursting multiple CDs and resources -- which defeats the point of using an invuln in the first place -- assuming they still have any by the time WD procs.

"But WAR and GNB still need healing for theirs too!" They can contribute to the self-healing requirements of their invulns. Not only can DRK not, but the way WD is structured, it wouldn't want to.

To add a healer’s perspective on LD versus Superbolide and Holmgang: my healing cooldowns for a WAR or GNB is literally 1 oGCD. Between my cohealer (AST) and me (SGE), we do ED + Druochole on our WAR and GNB when they immunity. Sometimes I just use Druochole for the small boost + mana regen from Addersgall usage, and the tank takes care of the rest on their own (especially if it’s our WAR). Compare this to a DRK where we will be using far more than just 2 oGCDs combined to heal Walking Dead because we have to hit the 100% HP requirement. And the DRK cannot do anything to assist with the healing since they do not have any healing CDs outside of Abyssal Drain, which may or may not be on demand when they are planning to LD.

It’s simply a better allocation of healing resources to NOT have a DRK immunity (outside of if you have a WHM, and then Benediction is locked into being used with LD). Especially when you are in an environment where your healers want to optimize their healing cooldowns. My cohealer and I simply don’t want to deal with the headache of burning numerous more resources when we could have Holmgang or Superbolide, and use significantly less.

[DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise]

Except that all invulns have now been balanced around 10 second durations, even Holmgang. Not to mention that having a job with a longer-length invuln would still warrant adjustment to its other mitigation skills to compensate.

Well no if something has a risk it requires a reward. If something is potentially worse, it should also be potentially better. If square can't come to terms with that, then sure they should just make it a Holmgang clone and get rid of walking dead, but that would be a pathetic defeat, throwing their hands up and giving up. But that'd be a more drastic change than violating their 10 second principle.

As for cart before the horse, hombre we are already here, whats done is done. Its not like they can make it worse.
And if they let shields contribute to the 100% (and they leave it at 100% which imo is too much) then drk can cover a quarter of that and sch/sge can more effectively as well. Shoot a single galvanize crit could wipe it out

[The_User]

Another day, Another reply of why WD isn't the worst from a person who didn't main drk.

[HyoMinPark]

And if they let shields contribute to the 100% (and they leave it at 100% which imo is too much) then drk can cover a quarter of that and sch/sge can more effectively as well. Shoot a single galvanize crit could wipe it out

This would be suboptimal healing. At an optimized level, neither a SCH or SGE are touching their GCD shields. So in these settings, DRK still wouldn’t be using LD because it would cost the healers. Why would the healers opt for LD, blowing more resources than necessary, AND GCD shielding, when they can just have the WAR Holmgang? Or the GNB Superbolide? They are still spending significantly less resources on both of those. Even in a non-optimized or casual setting, this is the case.

While SCH can force a Crit Adlo with Recitation, SGE does not have an equivalent to that—and one crit shield is not going to cover the majority of a tank’s HP. So again, we are now forcing healers to spend more resources to heal Living Dead where they use significantly less on any other tank immunity (or none at all with Hallowed Ground).

I don’t think you understand the issue of LD versus the other immunities. Especially not in terms of the healing requirements and how much of a resource drain LD is compared to the other three for any healer that isn’t a WHM.

[DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise]

This would be suboptimal healing. At an optimized level, neither a SCH or SGE are touching their GCD shields. So in these settings, DRK still wouldn’t be using LD because it would cost the healers. Why would the healers opt for LD, blowing more resources than necessary, AND GCD shielding, when they can just have the WAR Holmgang? Or the GNB Superbolide? They are still spending significantly less resources on both of those. Even in a non-optimized or casual setting, this is the case.

While SCH can force a Crit Adlo with Recitation, SGE does not have an equivalent to that—and one crit shield is not going to cover the majority of a tank’s HP. So again, we are now forcing healers to spend more resources to heal Living Dead where they use significantly less on any other tank immunity (or none at all with Hallowed Ground).

I don’t think you understand the issue of LD versus the other immunities. Especially not in terms of the healing requirements and how much of a resource drain LD is compared to the other three for any healer that isn’t a WHM.

Oh, well I tried to impress that I think 100% is too much. I don't want to boldly throw a number out there because it'd just be arbitrary, but so is 100%. So I'll throw an incorrect number out there thats just as arbitrary. 50%. No wait, too easy, 70%. Ahh, too hard, 60%. No wait, 62.5%. Yes, 62.5%, that is The Correct amount needed to be healed or shielded.
:P yaeh I get it, I just didn't want to put a number out there.

At the same time I know that the duration of the invul doesn't even matter in the context of raiding it could be 3 second holmgang on a 2 minute cooldown and Zenos and The Balance would call it the best invul in the game, cause its just to eat a TB thats it. But it would be a garbage invul in other use cases.
If dungeons didn't matter to the devs then they'd all be on 4 minute cooldowns. I do respect their use cases in raids, but if people want to insist that dungeons dont matter then theres nothing that can really be said, other than the devs and many others unequivocally disagree.

[HyoMinPark]

If dungeons didn't matter to the devs then they'd all be on 4 minute cooldowns. I do respect their use cases in raids, but if people want to insist that dungeons dont matter then theres nothing that can really be said, other than the devs and many others unequivocally disagree.

I mean, dungeon balance is jank regardless, nor should it really be used as the base for any sort of job balance. WAR is basically a healer in dungeons, and healers are irrelevant next to a halfway decent WAR. But my argument still stands: even in casual settings, all three other tank invulns are better and require significantly less work from the healer than LD does. There is no instance where LD does anything better than Holmgang, Superbolide, or Hallowed Ground. Its design has been flawed and criticized since HW.

In terms of your percentages, any “amount required to heal” mechanic is still subpar to the other three, in that they do not have an “amount required to heal” attached to them. So again, what advantage is LD offering now? None. Lowering the amount to heal only makes it slightly less annoying from a healer perspective, but LD would still be at a disadvantage since the other three are free from this criterion.