Can we bring Thief back into the fold?

[Shougun]

It's difficult to source as it's something he's said in passing at events like fan fest, live letters, or in more casual interviews, but here's a quote from when the rogue/ninja job was added into the game in the first place, and he's made similar comments since when people have asked for more morally grey jobs to be added into the game.

https://novacrystallis.com/2014/06/f...announcements/

"The Rogues were once thieves but through time they’ve evolved into their own respected guild. Why would a city allow a thieves guild? This is the reason they are not called thieves."

He's also made comments like "why would the warrior of light be a thief?" to imply that he doesn't want names with negative connotations attached to them, hence rogue rather than thief. Not only that, but if anything would be more "thief-y" it goes to ninja because of its rogue roots, the Ivalician raid gear, for example has a thief set which was set for ninja.

That quote you provided is actually what I'm using though lol, if you read my whole post you'll see I make allusion to that (and it's how I claim Yoshida said Rogue is Thief, another source saying similar things to yours but he literally says Thief is Rogue in that), and it also doesn't say what people are saying he said so I still need a source.

That quote says naturally a city trying to turn a leaf would probably not have an open invitation to thievery. Sure, makes sense. Similarly you wouldn't put Black Mage or Dark Knight as an open guild for people to sign right up for. Because they need a base class, a base class for Thief could be rogue but it plays out almost exactly like Thief (which is a bit unfortunate), meanwhile they could tip their hat to classic FF games by saying Rogue (Thief) -> Ninja, and that is what they chose. Since in the old days we had to have class halls. This says to me that at this point in time where we no longer need classes to make jobs, if rogue / ninja didn't exist already, that technically they 'could have' made Thief (as a straight up job, with of course the back story to make it so you're not a petty thief).

So my statement still stands, source? As it sounds unbelievable and ultimately a silly perspective. Can be an assassin, can be a vigilante, or whatever else weird things we've done in our jobs/quests, but "stop right there criminal scum!" you can't be a Thief even if it is relatively easy to make a back story of a good Thief (or that we've stolen before/have a stealing ability). Or that we've quite a few Thief heroes in the FF franchise, or in general media.

And technically speaking they did add Thief anyways, just as a Rogue- it's what they said and is what was mechanically done. I just find that he would say our hero can't be one very silly since major FF characters have done the same thing (that the city having a guild called thieves being a bit weird makes sense, and that is all your quote says too (and what I found myself back when I questioned people) and what I'm agreeing to- the other extra stuff people are saying I've still yet to see a source, it's all word of mouth right now).

[Lihtleita]

"the wol cant be a thief! lets just let them mug ppl... thats fine"

[Razard]

I hate to point out the obvious. But having a thieves guild in a town, even a town started by reformed pirates, is one of those fantasy things that is really dumb to me.

I know you aren't supposed to think about these things. But why would you make a guild basically saying "We're a bunch of organised criminals. Local police please raid us if anything goes missing from anywhere." So they have to be either shadow organisations or relentlessly mocked like in Discworld.

FFXIV sidesteps this by making the Rogues guild espionage task force and giving them a strict code to enforce.

[Angelov-Mercy]

I hate to point out the obvious. But having a thieves guild in a town, even a town started by reformed pirates, is one of those fantasy things that is really dumb to me.

I know you aren't supposed to think about these things. But why would you make a guild basically saying "We're a bunch of organised criminals. Local police please raid us if anything goes missing from anywhere." So they have to be either shadow organisations or relentlessly mocked like in Discworld.

FFXIV sidesteps this by making the Rogues guild espionage task force and giving them a strict code to enforce.

Hiding in plain sight strategy, like the Phoenix Foundation??


lol

[Reaperking386]

my apologies to the community. What I meant was to have rogue branch out to Thief to become a job of it's own to max level and If I may, I don't think morals should control a job class function and being a "thief" does not mean you are morally evil after all Thief was in FF11 as a job class.

[wereotter]

my apologies to the community. What I meant was to have rogue branch out to Thief to become a job of it's own to max level and If I may, I don't think morals should control a job class function and being a "thief" does not mean you are morally evil.

This will not happen.

The developers very rarely come out and outright say "no, never" to anything they're asked for. When asked to have more branching jobs in the scholar/summoner vein, they emphatically said absolutely not. Balancing the two jobs has caused them no end of headaches. They've done everything they can to separate the two up to the point now that if you look at the actions of the jobs, the only skill they share in common now is resurrection. (Summoner's physick is a different skill from scholar's)

So I wouldn't expect them to do this at any point in the future.

[kaynide]

It’s an idea people have discussed and ultimately I do think many would appreciate having rogue (or thief) be its own unique job...but some problems:

1) The devs are on record saying rogue is thief, just they can’t use the word thief because of nuance. Rogue has a variety of imagery associated whereas thief is pretty specific and very negative in Japanese. In essence it’s more like... assassin vs murderer... similar meaning but different nuance.

2) they have stated clearly that for the foreseeable future, they will not be adding alternate jobs like they did summoner and scholar. They very much hate that whole thing although it seemed an interesting idea at the time.

[LolitaBansheeMeru]

Rogue is Thief in all but name.
What else would it have exactly? Thief's job fantasy is using knives and stealing items. Rogue/Ninja already has Mug so...

nice little lie

Rogue is a shitty version of thief..

mug doesn't steal a item it increase drop chance (if u time it right)

you literally don't steal... you just stealth around as a shitty ninja..

also we stopped being warrior of light, tbh we can be bad but good

then again summoner is a shitty version of real summoners as well

We shouldnt be forced into good/bad when both are options for us in the story tbh

[Razard]

nice little lie

It isn't, but carry on. I'm sure this will be scintillating /rolleyes

Rogue is a shitty version of Thief. Mug doesn't steal a item it increase drop chance (if u time it right)you literally don't steal. You just stealth around as a shitty ninja.

So... what exactly? Thievery machanics would be redundant in a game like this. And guess what Thieves and Ninja have in common? They both use Stealth. Also Thief into Ninja has been a thing in FF since the 80s.

Also we stopped being Warrior of Light, tbh we can be bad but good.

No we haven't stopped being Warrior of Light. Do pay attention. Heck they still call you that in the source.

Then again summoner is a shitty version of real summoners as well.

I've never gotten a straight answer from people to the question of what a "real" Summoner is. I probably never will. Ask 10 FF fans what a "real" Summoner is and you'll probably get 20 answers.

We shouldnt be forced into good/bad when both are options for us in the story tbh.

Thems the breaks I'm afraid. This is Yoshi-P's story and we're along for the ride. We're the Hero, no matter what your 14 year old edgyness wants.

Fixed some of your formatting for you, not an expert but I do try. You're welcome.

[Shougun]

nice little lie

Are you saying Seraphor is lying or the devs? Just want to be clear that the devs said Rogue is Thief. Well that and there is a clear relationship between Rogue and Thief in classic abilities (even if some are modified for balance or whatever other reasons).

On mug / steal true drop attack could cause a number of problems, having it relate to death still acts as a sort of stealing effect while staying more balanced and relating to normal drop tables (not requiring another new drop table).

Something that might be interesting while staying balance able would be you could mug an enemy, increasing their drop table like it does currently, AND you have a chance to steal a random item that fills the mug ability slot temporarily. Like you might steal a potion, bomb, smoke bomb, poison, hi-potion, etc, etc, and you could then use that in combat- making it so you get to steal something on the spot. Not that I think that is needed but it might have made a fun little gimmick.

I've never gotten a straight answer from people to the question of what a "real" Summoner is. I probably never will. Ask 10 FF fans what a "real" Summoner is and you'll probably get 20 answers.
)

Don't think you've ever asked me but I would say ARR's was a very poor shadow of FF SMN and our current SMN, while a little toned down in breadth (options) / primal focus (kind of wish the non-primal spells would as you get higher level become more primal related) more than I'd like, yet is obviously and clearly a FF SMN. Mechanically our current summoner represents pretty much all of the summoners in all of the games, which is kind of unique. If they give them some level 90 ultimate spell to replace themselves with a primal temporarily then you've got every representation ever lol (I call it 'demiurge' :3).

Ultimately having gone through a decent amount of thought, looking through all the games in and out of their own contexts, and then making loads of posts of it.. I would say FF SMN (making a clear distinction that being a generic SMN doesn't make you a FF SMN, just like being a chicken doesn't make you a chocobo)- FF SMN is a job that "summons grand beings to do grand things". That's it. That's a FF SMN. The gameplay and back story of each SMN has shifted wildly from each game but until FFXIV's ARR version EVERY, and I mean EVERY, single FF had your main and most nostalgic, most spells from the weakest to the most powerful, most memorable moves were all about calling grand beings to grand things. You cannot give SMN something simply and call it a day, FF's SMN is about excess.

Like if someone had to describe SMN in one word, beyond using the job's own name to describe it lol I would say "excessive". It's not that every single being SMN calls is huge, but they're always "extra" your cute chocobo butt summon, carby, moogles, whatever, your 10 minute cutscene of the entire universe dying, it's always one of the most excessive jobs. In terms of budgets, SMN should be at the top lol. It's why I said ARR's SMN was a good job but a bad FF SMN - it didn't even go half as hard as FFXI did (which was a pretty subdued game, so that's not a good thing I think), it was like someone decided to make part of the game chibi theme'd while the rest of the game ignored that concept. Now however (post ARR) we've got demi stuff, and huge ahk morns, fairly high primal content focus, pet, one offs, etc - so.. while of course I'd love to see more and more primal focus, it definitely currently has some of those vibes (grand beings for grand things). I also appreciate that they've tried to keep the diversity of the job (even adding a fairly potent healing dot to an attack move), and honestly they are even keeping it overpowered too which is kind of cute lol (not saying crazy OP, but at least when I play it I feel like I've got great support, great damage, and great mobility- it's just overall pretty great lol).