The Road to 5.0

[Iscah]

I'd intended to amend my previous post before you replied: I am not at all opposed to the Garleans being portrayed in a more positive light overall. I liked Regula and was really happy when Maxima turned out to be a sensible ally. I appreciated seeing a more noble and reasonable side of the characters.

I still disagree with... not so much with your interpretation of the lorebook information, but the degree to which you speak of it as solid fact. If you presented it as your take on the information, people might not question you about it so much, but object because you say we are ignoring the 'facts' of their history. Not because it is implausible, and not because I don't want that to be the truth, but because you phrase it as absolute fact when it is not yet so.

The lorebook does not directly state that the Garleans moved north because of their conflict with other tribes. Until the game goes into more detail, I regard the information as having as question mark against it.

And I still think it sounds like a very strange thing that the budding republic had to use force to unite its own people "to protect them". I'm not saying that because I'm looking for things to object to. It just doesn't sound like it makes sense, regardless of which country we're talking about.

It's the very definition of persecution. They were targeted for a specific reason, being seen as 'easy targets' due to their lack of an ability to wield aether. It is also stated outright that if not for the presence of ceruleum in their new home they would have died out due to the extreme climate and lack of easily acquired food.

They might have died out without the ceruleum, yes, but so would the other tribes and countries the lorebook mentions existing in the area. That isn't something unique to the Garleans. They are not the only ones suffering.

And perhaps it's a matter of how we define persecution. Like Moose said in the post that I quoted, I feel like "persecution" implies a degree of deliberate targeting due to prejudice, going out of the way to attack Garleans just because they're Garlean, as opposed to pragmatic targeting because the other person wants to survive too, and is looking for a target they can survive against.

I know, of course, that you're trying to dilute the significance of the lorebook by not so subtly insinuating it is not an historical record but just some Garlean's opinion. However, the foreword by the writers is quite clear that the encyclopaedia is knowledge of Eorzea's forebears, in terms of their histories, legends and fables. If the above was all some manner of opinion, we can be certain that it would be drawn out as such. Until the book is explicitly contradicted on this by another equally valid canonical source, I am taking it as a good canon source of their history.

I'm not intending to dilute the lorebook. I just don't regard it as definite when it deals with information that will be covered later in-game. Most likely very soon. (Plus the information about Goug from the Ivalice quests.)

And I don't mean to dismiss it by declaring it "just some Garlean's opinion". Rather, some parts of the way it's phrased don't sound like a detached historian voice to me, it sounds like it could be fragments from a rousing speech a Garlean politician might give to the people about how they suffered in the past and how they had the strength to survive.


EDIT: The lorebook may have 'diluted' itself in my opinion by having at least one example of deliberately omitting future information (Yda's profile) and either incorrect-or-retconned information (the rabbithole of the astrologian quest). In-game information wins out over lorebook information, and I know there's game information soon to come that will need to be compared to it.

EDIT EDIT: I guess my gut feeling is, persecution is a strong description to use, and if the lorebook didn’t explicitly say they were persecuted then they should not be described that way. I also feel like it implies something more systematic - say if all the other tribes united to drive them out, that would be persecution, whereas all those individual tribes opportunistically raiding the Garleans would not be amount to the same thing. Though might equally drive them to leave.

[Lauront]

We could potentially dispute any aspect of the lorebook. I've done as much with regard to Hydaelyn and the nature of the "Light" necessarily meaning she has good intentions - but I would note that the difference is that this is speculation on unsaid aspects of the lore, as opposed to sections of it that the book specifically comments upon. However, in the absence of any other sources, and given that it is in fact consistent with what few in game sources we have (being mostly a formalisation of them), I'm inclined to take those elements it comments on at face value, until they're contradicted. I think it gives a pretty good explanation of what went into formulating the Garlean mindset, and the formation of the Republic to ward off further aggression (which was preventing the growth of the villages and towns preceding it) makes perfect sense to me. Why would force be required? Possibly because some chieftains would have preferred they be at the helm of the new republic. Could be a variety of reasons, that would not alter the fact that a newly formed republic would be better able to achieve their goals at that point in time.

They might have died out without the ceruleum, yes, but so would the other tribes and countries the lorebook mentions existing in the area. That isn't something unique to the Garleans. They are not the only ones suffering.

...but they would be the easiest targets given their inability to wield the aether on a regular basis. That's the point. Ceruleum wasn't weaponised at that point. The other tribes had the ability to wield the aether (even the most feral beast tribes count amongst them potent magic users), which could do all it could, and furthermore, be weaponised.

[ObsidianFire]

I highly doubt that not everyone who was/is culturally Garlean can't use magic. In the current-day Garlean homeland, a full third of the population isn't even Garlean by race, but is Garlean by culture and always has been. And Garlemald has always prized magic users no matter where they come from. I can seen non-Garlean-race Garleans being highly encouraged to take up the magical arts. Also, there's good reason the Garleans are the ones who invented firearms, and from the sound of it, the invention of firearms predates the invention of magiteck. So I have a feeling that once the Garleans got to northern Ilsabard, they doubled down on figuring out non-aetheric ways of keeping up with mages to supplement the mages they did have.

The thing is, even in aether-heavy societies like Eorzea, mages are not the majority of fighting forces. They are still the minority compared to martial fighters. Garlemald just has the percentage of the population who can use magic even more heavily skewed then usual. It's less, magic vs. no magic and more, many mages vs fewer mages. But where the fewer mages have a lot more infantry support. There's reasons Garlemald has the most organized military we've come across...

[Anonymoose]

On that point, I'm of the view that Varis may have dismissed Aulus (was he guided by Elidibus?) to Gyr Abania, where he could entertain a far more interested Zenos, partly because he was intrigued to see whether Aulus's theories could bear any fruit, without him making a mess of things in the imperial heartlands.

I really expected Aulus to be revealed to be Elidibus or an underling of some kind. Even the name felt like a clue: Asina... Ascina... Ascian...

Would have made a good pun for the title for head medics being "mal" (a common word root from Latin malus; bad, evil, illness).

[Berethos]

I really expected Aulus to be revealed to be Elidibus or an underling of some kind. Even the name felt like a clue: Asina... Ascina... Ascian...

Would have made a good pun for the title for head medics being "mal" (a common word root from Latin malus; bad, evil, illness).

A doctor engaged in the malpractice of a metaphysical sort?

[YianKutku]

The phrasing of the book indicates that they used those methods to achieve survival in the section on the "early republic" (as opposed to "empire"); the section on "unifying the north" specifically mentions conquering their neighbours once Galvus had introduced warmachina. So I consider that his interpretation is correct.

The question was how the Garleans "expanded their borders". The act of creating the republic in the first place is expanding their borders, from one single town to a republic. In fact, that very section specifically said "For centuries, Garlemald prevailed, using every tactic at its disposal". "Prevailed" does not mean "barely hanging on the edge of extinction".

In terms of existential survival, did the Republic of Garlemald have it any harder than Gelmorra or Ishgard?

[Theodric]

I really expected Aulus to be revealed to be Elidibus or an underling of some kind. Even the name felt like a clue: Asina... Ascina... Ascian...

Would have made a good pun for the title for head medics being "mal" (a common word root from Latin malus; bad, evil, illness).

Aulus is a rather odd case. He boasts a fairly unique design and is responsible for research that is very much a game changer. The nature of his research makes it plausible that he could, in theory, easily be written back into the story assuming he also experimented on himself. I was very much expecting him to turn out to be FFXIV's 'Hojo'. The vats used to house his research subjects are also very visually similar to those seen in FFVII.

I suppose it's possible that he was only ever intended to serve as a plot device to justify Zenos' power but I do feel as though he perished rather quickly and with many questions unanswered. Incidentally, that's my beef with Regula as well. I can't help but wonder if both were originally intended for larger roles yet had them cut short at some point during the development cycle.

[LineageRazor]

One of my biggest beefs with painting the Garleans in a sympathetic light is that up until Stormblood virtually NO effort was expended to portray the Garleans as anything but the vilest of villains - except in sources external to the game. Probably the only Garleans portrayed in a positive light in-game were Rhritatyn and debatably Gaius. The former barely got fleshed out as a character but seemed to be an honorable sort (and, significantly, was not racially Garlean). The latter had a code of honor to which he rigorously adhered - but that code was, basically, might makes right, so it's tough to portray him in a light more positive than that of a noble villain.

Aside from that, we learned that Garleans hold the families of their conscripts hostage and murder them if the conscripts don't toe the line - and even afterwards, will send special forces to hunt down and kill any deserters. We learned that a typical Garlean considers any non-Garlean (including a naturalized citizen) to be sub-human. We learned that high-ranking Garleans are allowed to execute suspected spies on-the-spot, without even a token trial. We learned that Garlemand is an unstoppable war machine, aggressively expanding its borders by force of arms. We learned that their solution to the Primal problem is straight up genocide. We learned that they are quick to utilize technology they barely understand - and generally with consequences so devastating both to themselves and others it paints them as criminally irresponsible.

When Varis assumed power, the NPCs in the game were careful to spell out that while there's been a change in leadership, Varis is just as bad if not worse than the previous head of state - and punctuates it with a cutscene of him spitefully spitting on a coffin. Our first meeting with the guy coincides with him ordering the massacre of a tribe of unresisting Beastmen.

The game beats into our heads over and over and over and over that these guys are the BAD GUYS, and you should feel GOOD about fighting them. I mean, no sensible person is going to label an entire population based on the crimes of its military during a time of war, but the game wants us to know that the actions of the folks we're fighting against are inexcusable, and we're right to oppose them. Even when the game finally, FINALLY started to introduce some sympathetic characters in Stormblood, it was alongside some of the most horrific crimes we've seen from the Garleans so far. It seems crystal clear that the story writers were NOT initially trying to create a nuanced and sympathetic foe, but rather a vile, despicable villain without redeeming characteristics, whose excesses include (but are not limited to) fierce nationalism, racial supremecism, intention to commit genocide, and human experimentation.

As much as we might wish otherwise, this game has never been Ivalice, and honestly, the recent indication that there might be a few decent Garleans doesn't change that. Their tragic history as indicated by the lore books doesn't change that either. The nation will need a nearly complete overhaul politically, culturally, and socially before they can be considered anything other than bad guys. It seems like we may be on that road, to be fair; Varis's cooperation with (or, at least, tolerance of) Elidibus likely won't end well for them, and it wouldn't surprise me if it places the nation in such crisis that change of that magnitude in a short space of time is actually possible.

Edit: Neglected to mention Regula, another "decent" Garlean prior to Stormblood. But even he was portrayed with a lot of bad guy baggage, such as racial superiority and meddling self-destructively with forces he didn't understand. The effort to make certain Garleans into worthy foes seems token, at best, and doesn't change that all effort was going toward turning them into a hate-sink.

[ObsidianFire]

Even I don't think SE was trying that hard to paint Garleamld that evil. The first two major Garleans we meet are Nael and Giaus. One is almost certainly crazy and is definetly a Hate Sink and the other doesn't want the world to be destroyed to the point he gives his enemies multiple opportunities to put a stop to it. So even right at the start you have your Really Bad Bad Guy and your Halfway Decent Bad Guy.

I wouldn't even say the Garleans had an actual "Hate Sink" type character until Zenos and that's because SE told us they were making Zenos into a Hate Sink on purpose. Which kinda begs the question of what the other Garlean character are supposed to be...

The thing with all the Garleans is that the game has been pretty clear that the Ascians (and other beings) have been influencing them every chance they get. Bozja Citadel and Meteor? Bahamut definetly tempered Nael and might have tempered Midas to keep pursuing it. Ultima Weapon? Lahabrea has to keep assuring Giaus that it will do what he thinks it will. Varis wants advice about how to deal with eikons? Elidibus gives him advice.

There's enough outside influences going for a lot of people to think that Garlemald might have turned out differently if those influences hadn't been there. Now that people in Garlemald are aware of the influences, people what to see what Garlemald will do about it and if it turns out better.

[Enkidoh]

Gaius's very first appearence in 1.0 firmly entrenched him well and truly in the 'villian' role though - he wiped out an entire Ala Mhigan Resistance cell single-handedly, then shoots the player's Path Companion point blank, grievously injuring them, and then is only stopped doing the same to the player's character simply because the Circle of Knowing happened to show up at that time and one of the Archons jumped in and deflected the shot at the last second (for me it was Yda Lyse as I started in Gridania, so I assumed it differed depending on your city state). He then willingly engaged the Archons who were unable to even lay a scratch on him (Gaius then cheated by calling down a cannon blast from his airship, allowing him to depart the scene discretly).

And even his 'assistance' to the player during the 7th Umbral Era story was not based on altruism, but simple pragmatism - he outright said as much to the player that he helped them because he wanted "something worth conquering" and Nael dropping a giant space rock on Eorzea kind of defeated that.