16 hours of cross server zurvan extreme party finder: my thoughts

[Brian_]

Any decent group should be able to demolish Zurvan EX with minimal effort. At this point, any decent group would demolish A12S. What were you expecting from an EX primal? Especially after Sophia EX was one of the easiest EX primals we've ever gotten and the Creator was probably the easiest raid we've ever gotten.

I didn't think you said the fight was too hard. I said that tuning content with skip-able phases based on DPS is a good thing. It gives people a standard to aim for and rewards those above that standard with faster farming.

And, The devs said they would never tune another EX trial like Thordan EX.

So, exactly how is SE supposed to release harder content when this is the state of their player-base? Like I said, it is an issue with the players. When you see this topic or the PF in general, you can't make the argument that it was tuned too easy. When lots of people can't skip soar even in 6 DPS comps, you can't assume SE will make harder content. Gordias was the result of SE listening to top players saying that FCoB was too easy. Midas was the result of SE listening to player's complaints that Gordias was nothing but DPS checks. The Creator was the result of SE seeing the abysmal clear-rates. SE tunes based on feedback and results. We got Zurvan because we deserved it.

Also, from a practical point of view, where is Zurvan supposed to slot into progression? It's not meant for people who already cleared A11S. They already have i270 weapons (though the Zurvan ones are better in some cases due to secondaries). It's definitely not meant for people who already cleared A12S. Realistically, the fight fits into the progression path of people that are still on A10S or A11S. And, within that context, is Zurvan accurately tuned? It's definitely harder than A9S. I'd say it's about the same as A10S if not a tad easier. So it appropriately gives A10S and A11S prog players a bit of a boost with i265 weapons and helps their progression.

In that mold, it's the same as Thordan EX. Thordan EX's difficulty was tuned to be harder than A2S and easier than A3S. The i205 weapons were meant to give players with only i200 weapons a slight DPS boost to help in A3S and A4S.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Any decent group should be able to demolish Zurvan EX with minimal effort. At this point, any decent group would demolish A12S. What were you expecting from an EX primal? Especially after Sophia EX was one of the easiest EX primals we've ever gotten and the Creator was probably the easiest raid we've ever gotten.

I didn't think you said the fight was too hard. I said that tuning content with skip-able phases based on DPS is a good thing. It gives people a standard to aim for and rewards those above that standard with faster farming.

And, The devs said they would never tune another EX trial like Thordan EX.

So, exactly how is SE supposed to release harder content when this is the state of their player-base? Like I said, it is an issue with the players. When you see this topic or the PF in general, you can't make the argument that it was tuned too easy. When lots of people can't skip soar even in 6 DPS comps, you can't assume SE will make harder content. Gordias was the result of SE listening to top players saying that FCoB was too easy. Midas was the result of SE listening to player's complaints that Gordias was nothing but DPS checks. The Creator was the result of SE seeing the abysmal clear-rates. SE tunes based on feedback and results. We got Zurvan because we deserved it.

Considering their explicit mention he would be closer to A12S, Thordan was not an unreasonable expectation. Incidentally, Thordan has been highly praised as one of the best fights the devs have designed.

By gradually introducing harder content. Frankly speaking, XIV is horrendously balanced in terms of difficulty. There is either brain dead easy or punishingly difficult. Any in between is incredibly minute. What incentives do people have to upgrade gear when they released dungeons tuned to a year old ilvl? Gordias was a complete mess even top raiders express dislike towards, albeit more so The Manipulator. A frequent stance on reddit, one I tend to agree with, is Midas would have been better received had it released first. With so many players simply burnt out from Gordias, they didn't want another gauntlet. The Creator may be easier, but it still provides a challenge. The devs have gone on to mention developing an Extreme Savage specifically for top tier raiders. That is a step in the right direction. Zurvan, is not. All he does in further encourage poor performance and widen the enormous gap between players. Yes, JP responds better to challenges than NA, but even their clear rates are not particularly high.

Also, from a practical point of view, where is Zurvan supposed to slot into progression? It's not meant for people who already cleared A11S. They already have i270 weapons (though the Zurvan ones are better in some cases due to secondaries). It's definitely not meant for people who already cleared A12S. Realistically, the fight fits into the progression path of people that are still on A10S or A11S. And, within that context, is Zurvan accurately tuned? It's definitely harder than A9S. I'd say it's about the same as A10S if not a tad easier. So it appropriately gives A10S and A11S prog players a bit of a boost with i265 weapons and helps their progression.

In that mold, it's the same as Thordan EX. Thordan EX's difficulty was tuned to be harder than A2S and easier than A3S. The i205 weapons were meant to give players with only i200 weapons a slight DPS boost to help in A3S and A4S.

I disagree. Although neither were overly difficult, you couldn't push A9-10 mechanics twenty minutes into their release. Yes, we lacked the gear we have now, however that should be taken into account not wholly ignored. It doesn't help Zurvan reuses Scrapline-- a mechanic we've already been dealing with for three months. It only adds to the overall lack of imagination in his design, at least that has been my impression.

[Brian_]

Considering their explicit mention he would be closer to A12S,

Except they never said that.

Normal mode will be the same as usual; you will finish it before you know it. As for Extreme, many players have finished The Creator Savage Tier 4, so we made it on the difficult side. With Dun Scaith and new Diadem coming, the average item level will grow fast. So if we were to make the difficulty similar to that of Sophia, players would be done with him pretty quickly.

I did say it is going to be on the difficult side, so I think it should. The difficulty will be higher than the usual difficulty.

So where did he explicitly say this would be closer to A12S? He said it would be harder than the usual EX trial.

Is it? I don't think so. But, I am also a full BiS high-parsing player who cleared A12S on week 4 or 5. I think Thordan EX and Sephirot EX are clearly harder. The ordering of the rest is debatable.

As for Zurvan, like I said, it is a step in the right direction. You want content that tests players even if it's not hard content overall. Zurvan tests if you can do a proper opener. Just look at the discussions about soar skipping. It's exposing the hard truth that a lot of people can't do a proper opener and it's forcing people to really care about DPS like they should (though a lot of people in this topic still have their heads buried in the sand). With how punishing the mechanics are, it's actually forcing people to execute well. Compare that to Sophia EX where DPS didn't matter and you could repeatedly botch mechanics and still comfortably clear.

Earlier, I said Zurvan is really nothing new in terms of mechanics. But, from a different PoV, it does familiarize people who aren't seasoned raiders with common raid mechanics. Bait and move mechanics are all over savage. Prey marker isolation mechanics are all over savage. Out-in mechanics with no indicators are all over savage. Dragon Rage damage sharing is all over savage. Assigned position spreading is pretty much A11S's bread and butter. If you aren't familiar with T11, Zurvan's tether system will at least familiarize new raiders with a partner system they will see again in A12S. Zurvan is actually similar to Thordan in how it's a fairly succinct summary of common raid mechanics.

From that PoV, Zurvan is a better raid progression fight than a lot of EX trials which have more unique mechanics -- Sophia EX for example. Your complaints about the broken ladder is not that relevant to 3.4+. It was a really pronounced problem in 3.0 and 3.2, though.

Although neither were overly difficult, you couldn't push A9-10 mechanics twenty minutes into their release.

This is just wrong. On release, you could skip a lot of A9S. You could also skip multiple tank busters and other mechanics in A10S. I would know. I cleared both week 1 while skipping multiple mechanics.

Does Zurvan lack imagination? As someone that has cleared everything in this game, yea, I think it's a boring fight. I already mentioned how all the mechanics are copy-and-pasted from other fights. But, I would be mistaken to believe that an EX trial should be designed to cater to players like me. After how much Gordias and Midas damaged the raid population, it doesn't make sense to cater to players like me. 3.5 is a catch-up patch. Odd patches have always had a lack of content for players like me.

[KarstenS]

A frequent stance on reddit, one I tend to agree with, is Midas would have been better received had it released first.

There would be no real difference. Comparing Gordias before 3.2 with Midas before 3.4, A8S was the hardest fight we have ever seen in this game.

[CookieMonsta]

There would be no real difference. Comparing Gordias before 3.2 with Midas before 3.4, A8S was the hardest fight we have ever seen in this game.

A8S would've been even worse than A3S or A4S with the state of the community's unfamiliarity with the new classes changes if Midas was first. Hell, A6S would've killed the community faster than A3S ever could.

[Zumi]

My group almost always skipped soar using the normal set up. Not sure why there is a need in PF to use 1 tank or 1 healer.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Except they never said that.





So where did he explicitly say this would be closer to A12S? He said it would be harder than the usual EX trial.

Either in the Famitsu or another interview preceding 3.5, Yoshi mentioned A12. His subsequent mention of tuning it closer to Savage implies that was the initial intent. Somewhere along the way, they veered away and we've seen the results.

Is it? I don't think so. But, I am also a full BiS high-parsing player who cleared A12S on week 4 or 5. I think Thordan EX and Sephirot EX are clearly harder. The ordering of the rest is debatable.

As for Zurvan, like I said, it is a step in the right direction. You want content that tests players even if it's not hard content overall. Zurvan tests if you can do a proper opener. Just look at the discussions about soar skipping. It's exposing the hard truth that a lot of people can't do a proper opener and it's forcing people to really care about DPS like they should (though a lot of people in this topic still have their heads buried in the sand). With how punishing the mechanics are, it's actually forcing people to execute well. Compare that to Sophia EX where DPS didn't matter and you could repeatedly botch mechanics and still comfortably clear.

Earlier, I said Zurvan is really nothing new in terms of mechanics. But, from a different PoV, it does familiarize people who aren't seasoned raiders with common raid mechanics. Bait and move mechanics are all over savage. Prey marker isolation mechanics are all over savage. Out-in mechanics with no indicators are all over savage. Dragon Rage damage sharing is all over savage. Assigned position spreading is pretty much A11S's bread and butter. If you aren't familiar with T11, Zurvan's tether system will at least familiarize new raiders with a partner system they will see again in A12S. Zurvan is actually similar to Thordan in how it's a fairly succinct summary of common raid mechanics.

From that PoV, Zurvan is a better raid progression fight than a lot of EX trials which have more unique mechanics -- Sophia EX for example. Your complaints about the broken ladder is not that relevant to 3.4+. It was a really pronounced problem in 3.0 and 3.2, though.

Once again, I disagree. Were it the beginning of Heavenswards, I may feel differently, however to concluded the expansion on such an unimaginative and easy Primal means there is a derelict of meaningful content to tide people over. It further doesn't inspire much confidence things will change when Primals have become easier with each patch. Granted, at least most had decent mechanics to make them interesting. All we've seen from Zurvan is people omitting Healers or Tanks because the most efficient way of clearing him is a 5-6 DPS comp. Ironically, it's a clear demonstration of how poorly tuned damage is. We've had dungeons where healers spend 80% of their time in Cleric Stance and now a Primal where dropping one entirely makes the run faster-- debatably easier.

This is just wrong. On release, you could skip a lot of A9S. You could also skip multiple tank busters and other mechanics in A10S. I would know. I cleared both week 1 while skipping multiple mechanics.

Does Zurvan lack imagination? As someone that has cleared everything in this game, yea, I think it's a boring fight. I already mentioned how all the mechanics are copy-and-pasted from other fights. But, I would be mistaken to believe that an EX trial should be designed to cater to players like me. After how much Gordias and Midas damaged the raid population, it doesn't make sense to cater to players like me. 3.5 is a catch-up patch. Odd patches have always had a lack of content for players like me.

You weren't skipping Scrapline one day or rendering it a complete non factor. And you certainly weren't omitting a tank/healer to bring five DPS. Comparatively, Soar may as well not exist since the preferred strat is to skip and LB. Keep in mind, even casual raiders who weren't skipping anything from Savage are still skipping Soar. Basically, if you have any experience whatsoever with Savage, he's a joke.

Nor did I expect it to be toned to my skill level. What I did expect is something to keep me occupied for a little while. Neither Nidhogg or Sophia pose a significant challenge, however both are engaging fights with a good variation of mechanics. You had to work somewhat to skip Sophia's initial tank buster-- one she'll cycle through multiple times throughout the fight. You didn't have a chance to wail on them mechanics free for 25-30% of their health. There is a difference between catering and making fights an unimaginative pushover. I will concede Zurvan does show how woefully inept a good portion of the playerbase is at DPS. But that is as much a fault of the game as the player. When you have a massive difficulty gap in terms of content tier, people become complacent.

There would be no real difference. Comparing Gordias before 3.2 with Midas before 3.4, A8S was the hardest fight we have ever seen in this game.

A lot would beg to differ. Midas went down at 2-2.5 weeks; Gordias took nearly five. Regardless, Midas is widely considered a better tier.

My group almost always skipped soar using the normal set up. Not sure why there is a need in PF to use 1 tank or 1 healer.

There isn't a need. It's simply faster. The fact it's the preferred method already doesn't make Zurvan look like a particularly well designed fight.

[Brian_]

Either in the Famitsu or another interview preceding 3.5, Yoshi mentioned A12. His subsequent mention of tuning it closer to Savage implies that was the initial intent. Somewhere along the way, they veered away and we've seen the results.

Whether it's from 4Gamer, Gamewatch, or Famitsu, he has always said the same thing. All those interviews preceded 3.5. He never said it would be tuned closer to A12S. In fact, in Famitsu, he said this --

I think it will be more difficult than the extreme version of Sophia. There are many people who have completed the savage version of Alexander, so I wonder if it will be a challenge for them. Of course, the extreme Zurvan battle isn’t only for those who are taking on the high end raids, so it’s not as tough as the raids, but it will definitely be more challenging than Sophia. Since we’re adding the ability to recruit parties across worlds this time, I hope people will make use of that more than Raid Finder.

So I'm providing actual quotes from Yoshida and you've provided nothing.

Once again, I disagree. Were it the beginning of Heavenswards, I may feel differently, however to concluded the expansion on such an unimaginative and easy Primal means there is a derelict of meaningful content to tide people over. It further doesn't inspire much confidence things will change when Primals have become easier with each patch. Granted, at least most had decent mechanics to make them interesting. All we've seen from Zurvan is people omitting Healers or Tanks because the most efficient way of clearing him is a 5-6 DPS comp. Ironically, it's a clear demonstration of how poorly tuned damage is. We've had dungeons were healers spend 80% of their time in Cleric Stance and now a Primal where dropping one entirely makes the run faster-- debatably easier.

You know what has also become easier with each patch? Savage. This isn't a dereliction of duty. It's the correct realization that the player-base was clearly not ready for content at the difficulty of Gordias and Midas. The Creator can also be seen as unimaginative and easy and it's the last raid tier we're getting before 4.0. The 3.4 raid cycle was clearly catered to getting more casuals and MC players into raiding ahead of 4.0. It was a clear reset of raid difficulty. Within that context, Sophia and Zurvan make sense.

This is quite frankly puzzling to me. Did you clear Gordias? Or Midas? Because a lot of people didn't. Like I said earlier, SE is not blind. Nor am I. I cleared and enjoyed that content but you shouldn't tune your content for <1% of your player-base.

You weren't skipping Scrapline one day or rendering it a complete non factor. And you certainly weren't omitting a tank/healer to bring five DPS. Comparatively, Soar may as well not exist since the preferred strat is to skip and LB. Keep in mind, even casual raiders who weren't skipping anything from Savage are still skipping Soar. Basically, if you have any experience whatsoever with Savage, he's a joke.

Right. You were "only" skipping the last few phases of A9S and A10S and rendering them complete non factors.

Zurvan is not Savage. Of course the DPS benchmarks will be lower. Of course the fights will have stricter checks.

Do you not see the blatant hypocrisy in what you are saying? You claim there is a broken ladder and are apparently arguing that Zurvan is too easy. Zurvan is supposed to be a low rung on that ladder. EX Primals are supposed to be stepping stones for savage. I was an A8S cleared player. Nidhogg was a complete joke too and I cleared that in less than a lockout. Nothing was wrong with that. Nidhogg was not content for me.

Nor did I expect it to be toned to my skill level. What I did expect is something to keep me occupied for a little while.

Welcome to life after you've actually cleared content early on? Are you new to this or something? It has always been like this. Thordan EX was not content for A4S cleared players. Nidhogg was not content for A8S cleared players. Zurvan is not content for A12S cleared players.

I will concede Zurvan does show how woefully inept a good portion of the playerbase is at DPS. But that is as much a fault of the game as the player. When you have a massive difficulty gap in terms of content tier, people become complacent.

What I'm hearing here is really that you have a very close-minded, selfish, and quite frankly shallow perspective.

What you're asking for is the content to cater specifically to you. You're not asking that the content cater to players better than you. Players better than you are occupied speed running, under-manned running, and parse running content. They're occupied optimizing their play and becoming better players on their main and alts. They're not lamenting the lack of relevant content in a catch-up patch. You're also clearly not asking that the content cater to players who actually would benefit most from it or give newer players more content they can conceivably clear. So you're really just asking for content to specifically occupy your individual interests.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Whether it's from 4Gamer, Gamewatch, or Famitsu, he has always said the same thing. All those interviews preceded 3.5. He never said it would be tuned closer to A12S. In fact, in Famitsu, he said this --



So I'm providing actual quotes from Yoshida and you've provided nothing.

Reread your quote. The mention of Alexander is where the implication came from. Even taking that out entirely, Zurvan isn't harder than Sophia.

You know what has also become easier with each patch? Savage. This isn't a dereliction of duty. It's the correct realization that the player-base was clearly not ready for content at the difficulty of Gordias and Midas. The Creator can also be seen as unimaginative and easy and it's the last raid tier we're getting before 4.0. The 3.4 raid cycle was clearly catered to getting more casuals and MC players into raiding ahead of 4.0. It was a clear reset of raid difficulty. Within that context, Sophia and Zurvan make sense.

This is quite frankly puzzling to me. Did you clear Gordias? Or Midas? Because a lot of people didn't. Like I said earlier, SE is not blind. Nor am I. I cleared and enjoyed that content but you shouldn't tune your content for <1% of your player-base.

Where did I say content should be tuned towards the 1%? My only mention of difficulty was Thordan, who catered closer to the MC. You seem to be presuming there are only two options: easy or grueling. I specifically mentioned Nidhogg and even Sophia were decent due to their mechanical variance. Zurvan is weaker than both and you'll skip one of only two major mechanics almost immediately. You don't need Savage gear to accomplish that either. So there isn't any further confusion on what I have actually said, I would have been fine with Zurvan tuned similarly to the difficulties of Thordan, Sephirot or Nidhogg. The latter two aren't overly difficult fights, especially once you've cleared Savage. But they were engaging for what they were. You also weren't going to beat up on them for nearly 50% of their health before seeing a single major mechanic. You could skip plenty, yes, but you'd still see plenty. Zurvan? If you do skip Soar, he does nothing until towers. Maybe you count Southern Cross in that equation.

Right. You were "only" skipping the last few phases of A9S and A10S and rendering them complete non factors.

Zurvan is not Savage. Of course the DPS benchmarks will be lower. Of course the fights will have stricter checks.

Do you not see the blatant hypocrisy in what you are saying? You claim there is a broken ladder and are apparently arguing that Zurvan is too easy. Zurvan is supposed to be a low rung on that ladder. I was an A8S cleared player. Nidhogg was a complete joke too and I cleared that in less than a lockout. Nothing was wrong with that. Nidhogg was not content for me.

Final phase and first phase are not the same thing. If you skip Soar, Zurvan is a glorified target dummy until towers. Admittedly subjective, but I find that a poorly tuned fight.

Nor did I ever insinuate he was.

Lower on the totem pole, yes. But my argument is he's too low. He has no mechanical variance, one of his major ones is entirely avoidable and as I said just above, he does next to nothing for nearly half his health.

Welcome to life after you've actually cleared content early on? Are you new to this or something? It has always been like this. Thordan EX was not content for A4S cleared players. Nidhogg was not content for A8S cleared players. Zurvan is not content for A12S cleared players.

And yet Thordan remains a highly praised fight. Hence the crux of my argument. You can make a well designed fight still appeal to high skilled players even if they'll curb stomp it. Zurvan isn't that. You are certainly welcome to disagree, but your opinion is no better than mine.

What I'm hearing here is really that you have a very close-minded, selfish, and quite frankly shallow perspective.

What you're asking for is the content to cater specifically to you. You're not asking that the content cater to players better than you. Players better than you are occupied speed running, under-manned running, and parse running content. They're occupied optimizing their play and becoming better players on their main and alts. They're not lamenting the lack of relevant content in a catch-up patch. You're also clearly not asking that the content cater to players who actually would benefit most from it or give newer players more content they can conceivably clear. So you're really just asking for content to specifically occupy your interest.

You have a nasty habit with assumptions; wrong ones too.

See, I've been heavily in favour of Extreme Savage ever since they mentioned it. I may or may not be able to clear it myself, however I do love the idea. Having a critical opinion does not I mean care only for my own self interests. I am equally critical of healer DPS because I feel the playerbase is given no incentive to improve if dungeons are so easy, your healer spends 80% of it in Cleric Stance. And I don't believe the game does a good job actually teaching you a proper rotation. Am I not allowed to have these opinions? Evidently not, since that would make me selfish. Far be it I don't entirely agree with every developer decision.

[KarstenS]

Midas went down at 2-2.5 weeks; Gordias took nearly five.

Midas was done in week 3. Week 3 was the week they could buy the tome weapon and directly upgrade it to i240. A huge jump gearwise.

Back to Gordias: Even with nearly full i210 BiS gear the world first groups were not able to beat the enrage when playing the fight the intended way. At the end they've found a way to exploit a mechanic, which was a huge DPS loss when handled the correct way, and got it down.

In a later Dev interview it got explained some points about encounter design and the multiple steps of testing. They also stated there was not enough time to test the full fight under realistic conditions, which was the reason for this issue.

The onliest reason Gordias took this long was this issue in DPS balancing caused by an incomplete testing.

Just look how its now. After bringing some echo, A4S was easy to beat. A8S got echo and nerfs and is still for the most a wall.