Honest opinions on flash , do you think its fair it has no damage how would u rank it

[bswpayton]

Id like to maybe see something maybe combing sword and shield, to do an aoe attack , thats something diff and would make pali still unique

[Brannigan]

DGAF
Blind is OP
make blind work in raids

[Fluffernuff]

PLD does need better AoE options, but I don't think giving them something similar to Unleash or Overpower is really the way to go.

Instead, I think PLD should get a Salted Earth-style ability in which, instead of inflicting damage, enemies inside of it end up with a vulnerability up debuff. The PLD wouldn't be increasing his own AoE damage, but the party's AoE damage would go up. Enemies would also only suffer the vulnerability up debuff if the PLD is highest on the emnity list, and a portion of damage inflicted by other party members to enemies within the AoE is auto transferred to the PLD.

1) This still doesnt allow Paladin to do AoE damage. No AoE DAMAGE hinders PLD because they can't use FoF+Bloodbath in AoE situations. Its less mitigation overall and more targets hitting you for longer means you take that much more damage.
2) A vulnerability debuff does little to nothing for Paladin AoE emnity- Flash isnt affected by damage modifiers. CoS would only be able to be used ONCE in this time frame. (This ability does far too much to have a 25+ second duration. 10s at most)
3) giving PLD a vulnerability debuff would make them a must-have for raiding as a MT. Now they easily out DPS DRK and WAR in the MT position by leeching and ADDITIONAL % of total raid damage WITH the vulnerability boost on top? Welp. Every DRK better switch to PLD main before they get laughed out of the room!


...I think a simple AoE ability would be a far better addition to PLD. If we really want to give PLD some sort of AoE ability to fit their defensive nature, why not a proc on block that boosts their mitigation on use? Something like a baby between an AoE Shield Swipe and Inner Beast? It would also be an indirect buff to Sheltron

[Gemina]

I haven't leveled my tanks very high, but I did quickly notice that I don't share the same gripes with Flash that a lot of people do. Circular AoE requires less positionals and faster placement of mobs. AoE accuracy down on all mobs inflicted. AoE enmity generator that doesn't consume TP while also having the ability restore MP, and we want it to cause damage too?

It's fine. If I was dev, at best I would give it a DoT for the luls.

[Cenerae]

Flash serves it's purpose as an emnity tool, but it doesn't feel super rewarding to press, especially when it's a very heavy AoE pull and you have nothing to do but spam the thing over and over.

The blind is nice in theory, but in practise I've never really noticed it having an impact on incoming damage. I'm sure it actually does, but it doesn't often feel that way.

I'd be happy if they simply added a token amount of potency onto the ability, say, 50 for sake of argument. Just so it feels like you're actually contributing on AoE. That's still pathetic as far as AoE damage goes, but at least it's something.

As far as the argument of MP costs vs TP goes...I've always seen MP as the resource PLD has to manage. I've never run out or come close to running out of TP on PLD, but MP costs can quickly ramp up if you have to overuse Flash on a pull, or when you're making use of Clemency.

[Theodric]

It's interesting that some people are saying it's fine when...the developers themselves plan to completely overhaul combat in 4.0. I doubt Flash will remain as it is - if it does I shall be very surprised.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Strictly based on hate generation, the tank that does damage along with their enmity skills will obtain more hate. Therefore DRKs Unleash may be the strongest atm, but it's limited to MP unlike overpower.

Personally Overpower never let me down yet, it's amazing.

As far as if it's fair for PLD to not do any damage with it's aoe enmity builder: I think it's fair. Unlike DRK or WAR, PLDs flash has a blind trait added to it. It fits in line with what a PLD is supposed to be, which is a defensive tank.
They do need some aoe though, it's stilly at this point.

The only reason Overpower (120 potency, x5 enmity multiplier 600 enmity potency), Unleashed (100 potency, x6 multiplier) and Abyssal Drain (120 potency, x5 multiplier) generate more enmity than Flash (flat 600 potency worth of enmity) is due to Crits and damage buffs not effecting Flash.

Base Enmity is exactly the same for all 4 attacks but with even the base crit rate and multiplier the other enmity AoEs end up with about 13 more potency on average as Flash cannot crit. The fact that Berserk, Darkside and Unchaned also influence enmity output also changes things.

Overpower: 600 (base) * 1.02178 (base Crit) *1.5 (Berserk) * 2 (tank stance enmity multiplier) * .75 (stance penalty) = 1379.403 enmity (1839.204 enmity Unchained)
Unleash/Abyssal Drain: 600 (base) * 1.02178 (base Crit) * 1.15 (Darkside) * 2 (tank stance enmity multiplier) * .80 (stance penalty) = 1128.045 enmity
Flash: 600 (base) * 2 (tank stance) * .85 (stance penalty) = 1020 enmity

In theory Circle of Scorn and Salted Earth + Dark passenger are supposed to make up the enmity gap.
Circle of Scorn: ((300 (base) + 150 (DoT)) * 1.02178 (base Crit) *1.3 (FoF) * 2 (tank stance enmity multiplier) * .85 (stance penalty)) / 10 (gcds per use) = 101.616 enmity every 10 gcds
Salted Earth: (525 (DoT) * 1.02178 (base Crit) * 1.15 (Darkside) * 2 (tank stance) * .8 (stance penalty)) / 18 (gcds per use) = 54.835 enmity every 18 gcds
Dark Passenger: (150 (base) * 1.02178 (base Crit) * 1.15 (Darkside) * 2 (tank stance) * .8(stance penalty))/ 12 (gcds per use) = 23.500 enmity every 12 gcds
Dark Passenger(DA): (250 (base) * 1.02178 (base Crit) * 1.15 (Darkside) * 2 (tank stance) * .8(stance penalty))/ 12 (gcds per use) = 39.168 enmity every 12 gcds

This means the Paladin is behind the Warrior by 257.787 to 717.588 potency per GCD.

A theoretical version of Flash that could both Crit and was effected by FoF would be:
Flash (theory): 600 (base) * 1.02178 (base Crit) *1.3 (FoF) * 2 (tank stance enmity multiplier) * .85 (stance penalty) = 1354.880

This is a gain of 334.880 enmity and give Paladins a lead in the AoE enmity world second only to Unchained Berserk Overpowers.

P.S. Just for the sake of completeness Steel Cyclone is effectively 800 enmity potency before Crits for 2452.272 enmity under Berserk.

Flash serves it's purpose as an emnity tool, but it doesn't feel super rewarding to press, especially when it's a very heavy AoE pull and you have nothing to do but spam the thing over and over.

I've been using a rotation designed to maximize the Blind duration and number of targets with Goring Blade's DoT post level 54.

Flash x2 -> Goring blade Combo -> Flash x2 -> Goring Blade Combo target 2 -> Flash -> Rotate Goring Blade Combo targets starting at 3 until less than 3 targets remain.

The blind is nice in theory, but in practise I've never really noticed it having an impact on incoming damage. I'm sure it actually does, but it doesn't often feel that way.

Part of that is a combination of Blind only effecting certain attacks, diminishing returns causing early reappliance to shorten total duration and that the AoE Stuns from Holy and Celestial Opposition makes blind meaningless until stun falls off.

[Xlantaa]

It is correctly balanced. PLD is build as pure defensive tank. It is fair, he has the highest mitigation, so it is fair he does less damage. The only thing could allow is having more enmity generation to compensate. But PLD shouldn't have high DPS, that's not his purpose. Otherwise, I will say yes to a AoE for big enemy group, but without the Enmity generation. We must not forgot what a PLD is. I still think PLD has too much DPS for what should be if you ask me. Instead of give them more DPS, I prefer give them more hate generation. PLD is not for damage.

[basketofseals]

I'm fine with it doing no damage, but I do wish it would generate more enmity. As it stands, it's just the absolute worst tank AoE in every manner.

[Jetstream_Fox]

I'm surprised people use Unleash to grab enmity as DRK, honestly Abyssal Drain has more potency as well as the added bonus with Dark Arts to gain HP. Granted they're probably close to having the same enmity output, I'd rank DRK as having the most useful of the enmity skills simply due to the fact Blood Price really offsets all lost MP consumption if the mob is big enough.

Now my knowledge on WAR is a bit shoddy but I'm under the impression that Overpower is the only thing a WAR can use outside of Flash as an enmity builder, but due to nature of Overpower using TP, dealing a slight potency plus enmity build, puts it in third due the fact WAR drains TP quick with no option to self sustain as far my knowledge goes.

Now PLD on the other hand has the option to self sustain their MP so Flash isn't really a issue when it comes to consumption, plus factored in with Circle of Scorn, PLD can grab up some nice enmity without eating away at their MP as much. But PLD falls short because of the lack of damage that Flash does, now if Circle of Scorn was a spam skill, PLD would be greatly improved. But the class comes in second in my eyes due to fact PLD can keep up MP if the situation arises.