Can we please start thinking rationally again?

[Snugglebutt]

Yes, they are being locked out Snugglebutt. In order to get the mats .. you need to get a 60 crafter, well geared, able to do the 1* items who is ALSO a red-scrip level miner AND botanist (it takes favor items from both to get a mat). That is not 'inclusive'. That is not 'good for those just starting out'. That doesn't 'make it possible to get into endgame crafting without levelling multiple classes'. All that does is put even more power into the hands of a small number of people.

You cannot gain everything in this game from the moment you make your first character at level 1 on a single class unless you level that class, do the quests, gear up, grind the materials, buy them or cooperate with others to achieve your goals. Stop trying to make the argument based around small number of people having an advantage over the majority who cannot be bothered or do not have the time to invest because that is a highly flawed excuse which ignores the fact even if red scripts did not exist it would still be the case since prior to scripts very few people leveled all their crafts, geared and melded all their gear and unlocked all the master books.

You had the same advantage over others prior (which your now whining about) by simply being an omni-crafter in the past in your 'few vs majority' excuse. The few gained the same advantage obtained through time and effort even before the introduction of scripts. I see a lot of hypocrites arguing against scripts in here using very flawed excuses, also many of which relying on melodrama and hyperbole to spread their propaganda. As I also pointed out most omni-crafters already leveled their gathering classes including yourself and most of the people who are whining about requiring gathering classes to maximize your crafting potential, yet omni-crafting even without scripts also pushed people to level their gathering which is why most people have already done so.

I'll start thinking differently when you point me in the direction of all the overwhelming support for this system and all the people that are just pleased as punch with the current state of things. I see a handful of people supporting this awful punishment of a grind, whereas everyone else, including longtime crafters since launch, are ready to throw in the towel and walk away from the utter mess they've made of crafting and gathering.

Prove what I have bolded. You say show you where the overwhelming support is yet feel free to show me where these 'everyone else' are which you claim agree with you but have not said so themselves. We have a small but verbal group on the forums complaining and have another small group of people pointing out many of the former group are over-reacting and being melodramatic, often using hyperbole and fallacy to back up their stance with comments like 'crafting is dead' or 'everyone hates it' nonsense. You do not get to use the 'everyone else' hates it because you cannot prove such nonsense. The only change the system needs is small tweaks to either the cap amount or cost of the materials, perhaps more recipes added over time. So some people should really stop waving their 'end of world is nigh' banners.

[Sakasa]

TLDR: The mats required do not justify the "reward" for someone who is trying to get into crafting which from what I gather was the whole point of the system.
There is already a cap why do they need to make it a bigger grind for those with less resources.

Ok, i get it now and I am sorry it's putting you off. If a systematic turn in cycle was found so you can plan for 18hrs ahead would that work for you or does that seem even more stressful since you might not make a lockout?

I've struck a nerve it seems.

You didn't mate I am dead on the inside sadly, but having a nice quid pro quo leaves a decent structure. Who watches the watcher if you will.

[Joronas]

Snugglebutt; if the requirements for getting something are too restrictive (which, in this case, I wholeheartedly believe they are), then yes, it is being locked out. It can be argued that it's not a hard lockout, but if you are unable to participate (as opposed to unwilling or uninterested) then you are locked out from it.

If we go with the other interpretations, what is the point in doing this to crafting? New crafters weren't locked out of the market, they could just become omnicrafters too! Time and effort gating is locking out just as completely as 450 scrips a week.

Now, I will concede that you seem to be using the raider/scrip definition for locked out, in which case, you are absolutely correct. I do not believe that definition is the appropriate one for this, because I don't think it grasps the impact these decisions will have.

[PotatoWafflez]

Ok, i get it now and I am sorry it's putting you off. If a systematic turn in cycle was found so you can plan for 18hrs ahead would that work for you or does that seem even more stressful since you might not make a lockout?

Either being able to see or know what is coming up the next day or even the week if they wanted to be kind would help but it still doesn't really motivate the average player to set aside the time required with all the timed nodes and hidden items that are required in some cases for the 8/16 script return in regards to red scripts.
The fact that crafters with lots more resources are able to cap in under 30 minutes does not really justify dragging it out for the rest of us just so more mats can be removed from the economy.

They either need a daily bonus so that you can cap if you do one hand in a day for the week or they need to boost the script reward, if what they said is true and they want this to be the way crafting becomes more accessible, if that is not the case well then I'll either just stop crafting or just have to try and fit more prep work in somewhere but it is neither fun nor rewarding for me at the moment.

People will still cap on day one regardless of if they change it or not so if you want to be all "but then its too easy!" what difference does it actually make to anyone who isn't worse off than you?
Its like saying people should get less tomes from dungeons because they have worse gear or because they took longer or because they just unlocked it.
If you are able to make the hand-ins you should be able to cap in a reasonable time frame without needing mats set aside ahead of time. But that is just my opinion.

[GunnarWolfram]

You are right Gunnar the grind has been pushed on to you to proceed because it is time locked so you loose the ability to proceed the less time you have comitted. But as a casual crafter do you feel it is required for you to cap every week? Because for the crafted items tokens (purified coke, etc.) you can get 9 per week if you capped but as a casual crafter getting 2-4 sets would be more reasonable. So I was just wondering is it the road to full completion or just the requirement per week?

The first problem is those crafted item tokens require me to be a red scrip gatherer to get items necessary to make those sets. I am not bound by myself as a crafter alone, I depend on someone else or another class to provide me a scarce resource, which the only incentive for gatherer's is to make money off people who have the money to buy it. Otherwise I suspect they are upgrading their gear with the scrips, since crafter's dont make anything other than accessories and off hands.

It has more to do with the fact that as a casual player I am able to do other content that is weekly capped with limited play time. To cap DoM/DoW I need 35-40min a day for 6 days in roulettes to cap. The time investment caters to casuals and if I want to be hardcore I can complete it in less than 6 days but that is not what I personally choose to do. The key is that I do not have to be any other class to complete this, I do not have to spend any money to complete this. I am however required to be gatherer or pay the market price and hope that I do not get bad RNG and not meet the collectible requirement.

So as a casual player, what is my incentive? Why would I craft if the effort does not reflect the reward? If I could provide DoM/DoW with gear that would be awesome, maybe I spend the extra time/effort/money to do this. But as it stands right now I can repair my gear, I can meld my gear, and I COULD craft my gear if I pay for it, so why do the red scrips?

[Ferth]

Speaking as someone who, when ARR first launched, saw the effort required to make i70 gear and said "no thanks," I can honestly say seeing red scrips and blue scrips and collectible in no way makes me interested in giving it another shot. I have 4 crafts and one gatherer at 50+ right now and my desire to get anything to 60 kinda went out the window. I'm not sure who this new system is supposed to appeal to, but it certainly doesn't appeal to me.

But then, I got sick of grinding tomestones for Dow/m gear before we moved from mythology to soldiery. In fact, this terrible gearing system is why I stopped playing entirely shortly after final coil was released. If SE's answer is to spread this terrible system to every aspect of the game then I doubt I'll have much interest in playing in heavensward much longer either, Dow/m or doh/l.

[Xenitan]

Sure I'll be rational.

Costs for investing in crafting:
Time restricted so it must be divided out on a weekly basis (strictly worse than just if they removed the cap, though the time commitment would still be egregious)
Gil for the unchanged awful Materia system
Time invested in gathering new mats

Benefits for investing in crafting:
Gear that will not help for raiding
Potions and Food I could already make
Glamours I already had
Housing items I don't need CP or Control for

This is not a smart investment of my time and I will not be pursuing any further endeavors in crafting.

There's no reason to be a crafter except for enjoyment. I'll check back in with you after your third consecutive failed materia V failing or that NQ at 96% with mats that cost your week's rations to see if you're having fun, because if at any point you say to yourself "I wish this system was different" then rationally you agree with us, just on a smaller scale.

[Yeldir]

Here's my take on rational: Crafters and gatherers, gathering and crafting so they can craft things that let them gather and craft. What amazing things can they produce with this fantastical vortex of grind?

Uhhh... Housi- wait, no, you don't need the AF for that. Incredible gear for the battle classe- Oh, there isn't any. Hmmn.

Well, rationally, you know, having cogitated at length the intricacies of this lofty pattern, and I mean really worked out the big picture, rationally, I'd say that everything is completely fucked.

[Ferth]

Here's my take on rational: Crafters and gatherers, gathering and crafting so they can craft things that let them gather and craft. What amazing things can they produce with this fantastical vortex of grind?

Uhhh... Housi- wait, no, you don't need the AF for that. Incredible gear for the battle classe- Oh, there isn't any. Hmmn.

Well, rationally, you know, having cogitated at length the intricacies of this lofty pattern, and I mean really worked out the big picture, rationally, I'd say that everything is completely fucked.

But at least you thought about it rationally. Which, in the end, is all the OP really wants.

...right?

[Joronas]

I've noticed that when people say 'be rational' what they really mean is 'do not make waves, take what you are given and like it'. They do not mean 'make a realistic and logic-based assessment of the situation'.

They also say 'be positive' like that means anything other then deluding yourself. Being positive is fine -- when there is a reason to. Otherwise you're just throwing good money after bad. After all, the next lottery ticket has your jackpot ... right?