Forcing us to the entire story quest to unlock the new classes is just bad business

[Raist]

... So much so that if this was any other MMO people would have burned down the servers by now ...

That is what really needs to be understood...that so many people don't seem to be grasping in these debates.

This ISN'T any other MMO. SE never intended it to be.

[Cenebi]

So... people keep throwing around the "this is bad business" argument. This is not about what is and is not bad business. I'm willing to be that none of you have any idea what the particulars of SE's business model is (especially regarding FFXIV), so most people using the "this is bad business" line are talking out of their ass (likewise, so is almost everyone saying "no, this is good business). When you say that this will drive some players away, you are absolutely correct. Know what else drives players away? The game costing money. So does requiring a minimum amount of computing power. So does requiring a console. Hell, if all SE wanted to do is attract the maximum number of players they could, this would be an ad-based free-to-play game on IOS and Android. SE, and specifically the dev team are not in this solely to make money, however. Sure, they want to make money, but they want to do that by making a good game.

So, what you are mostly talking about is whether this is good game design or not. Game design is mostly not about simply attracting the widest audience you can. It's much more about attracting your target audience effectively (it's primarily about making a good game, of course). A huge part of this game is the story. Each job has a story associated with it. Based on the existing stories, neither Astrologian nor Dark Knight would make any sense to be based outside of Ishgard (I haven't done nearly enough in Machinist to be able to make the same claim). Thus, in order to allow players to unlock (or at least complete job quests) these jobs without significantly changing the job's story they need access to Ishgard. Based on the existing story, Ishgard is very isolationist and rarely allows foreigners in. Anyone that's actually played through the story will tell you how important to the story that is. In order to allow a brand new player that hasn't completed the story to get into Ishgard, this would need to change. Otherwise the reality of the game world wouldn't match up with the game's story at all. That would be like having a character die in the story, but still be available to give you quests.

Sure, they could change the job's story. Does anyone really want that? I sure don't. I quite like the existing job stories. I certainly don't want them to retroactively change the main story just to allow people to unlock the new jobs as soon as possible.

Making a game worse in order to appease a small number of players is generally a bad idea. I've talked to literally no one about this who decided that having to actually play the game in order to unlock the new jobs was a deal breaker. Mostly because even though the 2.0-2.55 story is old to most of us, it's still new to the new players. Being able to unlock the new jobs in Ishgard gives them something extra to look forward to, which is absolutely vital to have in an MMO. If I'm playing an MMO that gives me nothing different to look forward to as I get higher levels, I'm probably not going to be playing it very long.

As a side note, it makes you look really stupid when you come over from WoW (or GW2, etc) and say "WoW/GW2/FFXI/whatever did this, why doesn't FFXIV?" If we wanted to play WoW or GW2, etc we would be playing that game. I want to play FFXIV. Please stop trying to make it more like whatever game you played before this. This isn't WoW, this isn't FFXI, etc. If you want to play World of Warcraft, or Guild Wars 2, or FFXI, those games still exist. You can go play those. Nobody is stopping you.

[erish]

I'm a Ghorn bard and ran NoSephiroth Dynamis on Seraph and later Bismarck. I played XI pretty steadily until last December, actually. I started just when CoP was released. I tried to do a CoP fight when I was level 30 and I was completely and utterly lost - XI was brutal and did not hold your hand when it came to expansions, and I'd somehow gotten involved in a CoP party without having done the first cutscenes.

The Kazham key mobs in the three beastman areas were actually in the level 40+ areas of the zones; if you were lucky you might catch someone farming the bosses there to solo for you. I did that plenty of times for people when I was soloing stuff back there (for spells to sell.)

No new jobs were tied to Abyssea, but the expansion itself didn't make any sense if you hadn't finished CoP. (Abyssea was an alternate universe in which you died in the final fight of CoP and the Apocalypse happened.)

haha sorry but just lol

[Eidolon]

The typical soloists/low man situations was bringing along something on the order of a 40+ job, and even then it could still be dicey sometimes if solo. That meant either you or someone helping you had likely progressed through a lot of content reaching that point on their character. Note also that the original endgame level and first limit break took place at level 50, hence my reference to people being at or near endgame status.

Basically, you kinda needed be playing through content so you know what you were doing on these things--or have networked enough to have good help along the way. It was nowhere near being on the level of a "let's install the game and go straight to unlocking my advanced job of choice and play all the way through on that job from day one" kind of game. You had to invest time and effort first.

Aye, you definitely had options. You could form a party to get through the content, of on-level / like minded people. You could also get some high levels to just steamroll it for you. Both were still ways of putting in effort, though one definitely felt more "Earned" to some people.

Regardless, all of what you listed -
Dragoon, getting to 2-3 (Envoy) ... the first Party fight was at the END of that chain, so it was very easy to get to this point.
NIN Quest - Killing 2-3 NM's, very easy to do with a small party. I remember venturing in there and attacking the level 50 leeches at the pool. You've never seen low levels get eaten so fast
PLD- Could be handled with prism powders IIRC to get through Davoi. Pretty painless. Or self-invis if WHM was high enough.
SMN - again, I actually saw some people get it from random leeches that we killed for EXP chains. Though the biggest issue with Leeches often tended to be that they were the highest-level mobs in the area, and were some of THE most durable mobs in the game (and a favorite pet to Beast Masters)

The simple fact that people at end-game could go back and help newer players... that alone, is an action that helped create social networks. It helped create friendships, build stronger bonds, like a LOT of the FFXI game did. It was a wonderful environment, and while I will admit it had its faults (DRG LFP /3 days later), I can't deny how amazing it was, either.

The issue is, your point is completely moot. Because what people are asking for isn't to just be GIVEN the job. They just want to have it unlocked at 30. I don't think anyone would complain if they, say, had to complete a hard 1-man Trial at 30 in order to unlock DRK (Which, a gauntlet-style fight similar to the first DRK quest woudl be VERY appropriate!), or going around and finding the cards for Astrologian (Though how you get your deck is explained via the first quest, they could've spread this out a lot more or via a couple quests)... Things that require effort, but requires level-appropriate effort... Not ignoring it and going to 50, then 'coming back for it.'

haha sorry but just lol

Yea I already debunked that confusion. I think they're thinking of the Rank 5 quest to get Magicite from the 3 MAJOR beastmen strongholds, which actually had the level 50+ mobs

[Reinha]

I'm willing to be that none of you have any idea what the particulars of SE's business model is (especially regarding FFXIV), so most people using the "this is bad business" line are talking out of their ass . . . Hell, if all SE wanted to do is attract the maximum number of players they could, this would be an ad-based free-to-play game on IOS and Android. . . . Game design is mostly not about simply attracting the widest audience you can. It's much more about attracting your target audience effectively

I was going to post something long but this entire post pretty much sums up my thoughts. "Bad for business" is nothing but an unproven claim that's used to make one look like they know what they are talking about. According to SE's briefing slides (http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/ne...15q4slides.pdf), their MMO games are making net profit and are referred to as "stable revenue" for them. Ever since the release of ARR their quarterly MMO sales have more than doubled, so it's fair to assume that FFXIV contributes to those net profits. If this game is making a profit for SE, what makes it's current form bad for business?

The fact that some individual new players choose to stop playing, or that you can't get your friends to play a certain game simply isn't enough to prove what's bad business or game design. It's just anecdotal evidence. You're going to have to come up with something better to prove that claim, like statistics and financial data combined with an official definition of "bad business". It's also not the job of the defending side to prove what's "good business", because they aren't the ones who made the original claim. Burden of proof is always on the maker of the claim. Otherwise they are using a logical fallacy called "argument from ignorance" to support their case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). . . . In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof.

[Tuathaa]

If this game is making a profit for SE, what makes it's current form bad for business?

Current profit or short term profit is a bit different than steady or continued profit.

[Catwho]

When I refer to "level 40+ area" in FFXI, that was what level you could safely and easily solo the mobs, not what level the mobs were. In Giddeus, the first mob that dropped the key was a Yag Votary, approaching the east NM area from a transitional tunnel.

Maybe my perspective on this was warped because my first job to 75 back in 2004-2005 was white mage, and going solo into beastman areas to actually kill things was impossible. Yeah, I could sneak and invisible in, but then I could hammer their kneecaps and they'd stomp me flat. I took in a friend on 50 THF for the DPS help, and also for Treasure Hunter.

[Tuathaa]

That is what really needs to be understood...that so many people don't seem to be grasping in these debates.

This ISN'T any other MMO. SE never intended it to be.

And this isn't FFVII or FFXI either.

[Raist]

And this isn't FFVII or FFXI either.

But it IS part of the Final Fantasy franchise....which establishes Square's pattern for the gating (go back and look at their old Squaresoft games and such---these approaches are nothing new for them.

The point of all the XI examples cover multiple points of contention. People keep comparing this game to other games by different companies. XI is this this game's predecessor from the same company. XI was a BIG influence on this game (much of the assets are practically enhanced copy/pasta ffs), and this game is following the exact same trends (same company, same franchise, extremely similar mechanics in play--something that has remained consistent for nearly two decades now).

Anyone truly familiar with the company or at least the franchise should have expected this type of gating. Period. If it is their first introduction to their line of games, yes...it may be a bit off-putting. But it is a tradition of sorts---and pretty much anyone who has dealt with Asian culture should be well aware of how much effort will be put into guarding such traditions. They have their reasons for doing this...cry all you want, you likely aren't going to get it changed...at least not anytime soon. It was well over a decade in their last online IP in this franchise before they took down a lot of these barriers.

[Raist]

... snip ...

In a way you may actually be supporting the contrary arguments to those on the other side of those that are against the 2.55 gating.

New content has always been gated when it comes to Square (both new and old). You have even agreed to that with the examples given from XI. The reasons behind much of that gating was tied into lore then as it is now--it wasn't some arbitrary decision solely for the purpose of slowing people down or anything like a big money grab or something like that (granted, I'm sure they are happy about that, as it keeps people subbed---but it wasn't the primary factor in play here). The driving force behind those decisions is for continuity and quality--they want to keep people engaged in the story elements of the game. They have a passion for story-telling. It is one of the big distinguishing factors of their games. It is why many fans of the franchise have remained loyal...I recall people getting into very intense debates between this franchise and others back in the day. So much so that there was actually a sort of "this is not WoW!" meme floating around at the time--people even posted videos and animations on the debate.

SE's new content will have requirements for access---and most of the time it will be gated behind previously released content, where it fits in with the storytelling aspect of the previous content. Yes, for some it may suck that it happens to be at the current end of the ARR chapter---but that may change in the future (just like it did with XI eventually). They could expand on the ARR content, and the 2.55 part of the story will no longer be the end of that story arc--remember, there is a VERY big hanging chad element in Ul'dah at the moment. But for now, that is not likely to change anytime soon if their previously released IP's are any indication.

That's just how they are. How they have always been. There really is no reason to expect otherwise from them.