Gold Saucer outfits, gender locked?

[Ecks007]

Woah now... enjoying or not enjoying male players in swimwear is not wrong, so I'm surely not "downing" him. I think I was just pointing out the sillyness of his argument that because he is straight, that male players should not express sexuality like female characters. Either his opinion is that male sexuality is terrifying to him, or that the world needs to cater to his preferences.

Well I'm not saying the dudes can't wear a speedo, I'm merely saying that personally I don't like seeing it. Not like that's going to change anything. /shrug Either way people are going to put what they want on their characters, I'll just deal with it. I'm not going to jump down their throats and stuff just because their wearing something I don't personally like. That would be silly.

[Teia]

Well I'm not saying the dudes can't wear a speedo, I'm merely saying that personally I don't like seeing it.

Here's the thing. "I don't like seeing this" is very often used as an argument for "it shouldn't exist." In essence, characters' options end where the feelings of one specific group begins. It's fine to say you don't like seeing something, but when it ever crosses the line into "others shouldn't be able to do this," as it so often does, then it becomes a deeply, frankly indefensibly selfish argument.

It's like back in the day when it was deeply socially unacceptable for women to wear pants, solely because men didn't like it. Or communities where men get ostracized by other men if they have long hair, for no reason other than "we the majority don't like it." Denying those people agency over their own presentation is never a good thing because their choices for others' comfort is not a fair trade. A little tolerance can go a long way.

[Kurenai_Night]

Here's the thing. "I don't like seeing this" is very often used as an argument for "it shouldn't exist." It's fine to say... but when it crosses the line into "others shouldn't be able to do this," as it so often does, then it becomes an indefensibly selfish argument.

... A little tolerance can go a long way.

Oh I see. So we should be forced to deal with it because the proponents say the opposite? "I like seeing this." "It should exist." ?? How about the proponents have tolerance? Why is it that we are the only ones called selfish? The argument works both ways. A person who doesn't like it and doesn't think it should be implemented has just as much say so as the one who wants it implemented.. Besides all that, as game developers it is SE job to factor in costs. Does the amount of people wanting "this" or "that" justify the cost? Wether it be financial or manpower/time whatever... They haven't added it and don't seem to have any plans to do it. Nor should they.

[Niwashi]

Oh I see. So we should be forced to deal with it because the proponents say the opposite? "I like seeing this." "It should exist." ?? How about the proponents have tolerance? Why is it that we are the only ones called selfish? The argument works both ways. A person who doesn't like it and doesn't think it should be implemented has just as much say so as the one who wants it implemented.

I think that's part of the point. It should work both ways, but this content is being developed on the assumption that it doesn't.

A certain subset of men like seeing female characters in skimpy outfits but would rather not see males in skimpy outfits. So fine. They can get what they want. A similar subset of women like seeing male characters in skimpy outfits but would rather not see females in skimpy outfits. Well, tough. They're not allowed to have opinions on either point. That would go against what the men want.

It's that mismatch in what different players are being given that led to this whole discussion. If some players preference to see females in skimpy outfits justifies their inclusion in the Gold Saucer, than other players preference to see males in skimpy outfits justifies their inclusion as well. Or if you're going to go with the opinion that some players preference that males not be given more skimpy sexy outfits is reason enough for males not to get them, then it's equally reason for females not to get them either, because there are other players bothered by that.

So, regardless of whether you think the right to see them outweighs the right to not see them or vice-versa, it should do so equally for both genders. Either give a skimpy outfit to both genders or don't give one to either.

[Kurenai_Night]

I think..

I get what your saying and to some extent agree.. But based on reports I've seen, male gamers outweigh female gamers by quite a bit. So who is the game appealing to? Males. For instance, instead of going with Ramuh in one of the events FFXIV took part in, they went with Shiva because she is "sexy" according to their PR. Regardless of if that is a good thing or not, the fact is, most MMOs and games as a whole are focused and advertised towards men. Generally speaking, men want to see what? A woman in a bunny suit or a man in a bunny suit? if my 20+ years in gaming is anything to go on, I would say men (generally speaking!) want to see a woman in a bunny suit as opposed to a man in a bunny suit and I'm sure SE PR team would agree. Which is why it's marketed the way that it is. FFXIV isnt just on mass producing gear that looks skimpy on all females.. Most sets there is hardly a difference (mostly skirts on women as opposed to pants on a men).

[Niwashi]

But based on reports I've seen, male gamers outweigh female gamers by quite a bit.

Overall, gamers are about 52% male and 48% female. (This is according to the Entertainment Software Association, whose poll on the matter appears to be the most widely accepted in the industry.) What's more, that slight lead that males still have is mainly based on a significant lead in action, first-person shooter, and sports games, so even those percentages can underestimate the number of women in other genres, like RPGs.

I've never heard any specific numbers regarding FFXIV itself, but I have heard the Final Fantasy franchise cited in various articles as being highly attractive to women (even before we made up nearly half the playerbase). So, when we're playing a female-friendly franchise within a female-oriented genre of an industry that's 48% female overall, I'd be surprised if females aren't the majority of players here. Or even if somehow males are still holding a slim majority, it certainly wouldn't be by much.

Regardless of if that is a good thing or not, the fact is, most MMOs and games as a whole are focused and advertised towards men.

Advertised towards males, yes. Even that they're largely developed with males in mind is still pretty widely true, (though SE has made some significant strides towards changing that). Both these facts are based on the demographics of who used to be playing video/computer games twenty to thirty years ago, and the fact that "gamer" stereotypes haven't caught up to the current actual demographics.

[Teia]

Oh I see. So we should be forced to deal with it because the proponents say the opposite? "I like seeing this." "It should exist." ?? How about the proponents have tolerance? Why is it that we are the only ones called selfish? The argument works both ways.

No, it doesn't. One side is about giving people more choices with regards to how to express themselves, and asking those who don't like to see certain things to be tolerant of them. The other side is about restricting others' choices against their wishes just for the sake of their own comfort. Slight discomfort is nowhere near equivalent to having one's choices needlessly curtailed. Notably, FF14 allows male/male and female/female eternal bonds despite that some people don't like seeing them or are opposed to gay marriage, so it's fair to ask that variant means of self-expression be implemented with that same understanding that those who don't like it will exercise tolerance towards it.

[Kurenai_Night]

No, it doesn't...

Oh? and what choice to the individual who doesn't want to see a man parading about in a bunny suit? What choice have you left them? You have in fact, forced your need/wants on a person who plays the game same as you do and pays the sub same as you do to have to see something that may make them uncomfortable. Thereby, limiting their ability to freely enjoy the game. So yes, your position does indeed force limits on people. Boys who were sexually abused by older gay men for instance may not want to remember abuse due to the parading of men dressed in bunny suits. I happened to know one such individual abused by a flamboyant man.. Not only that but conservatives play this game too and don't want to see it and don't want to play a game that parades bunny suit men.. So again, your argument works both ways. They have voices to and deserve just as much input without being called selfish or intolerant. Anyone could use your same argument.. Molesters, thief, adulterers, murderers, those in incestuous relationships (just read about 3 last week. Daughter father, brother sister, mother son). So should we all just have a free for all and express ourselves how we please? Of course not.. Lines have to be drawn. Yes, even in a game.

[Ophie-Mio]

Boys who were sexually abused by older gay men for instance may not want to remember abuse due to the parading of men dressed in bunny suits. I happened to know one such individual abused by a flamboyant man.. Not only that but conservatives play this game too and don't want to see it and don't want to play a game that parades bunny suit men.. So again, your argument works both ways. They have voices to and deserve just as much input without being called selfish or intolerable.

And yet when girls want to cover up, we're told to glamour ourselves and get over it. Should this game design for the traumatized in mind? No. This argument here goes both ways in that women don't need to have a bunny suit either because someone out there could have been forced into a situation and the outfit causes trauma.

Why protect the men when the women obviously aren't? In this argument, there are men here who want the outfit because they want to appear sexy. There are women who want the outfit because they want to be sexy. Who is anyone to bring in their trauma to tell them no? If they are so triggered, then maybe they shouldn't be playing such video games that allow anything be to so scantily clad.

It's a personal choice of mine that I don't like seeing scantily clad women characters. Do I go around asking them to glamour themselves differently? No. They pay a subscription same as me and if I don't like it, I can look away from them.

[Kurenai_Night]

And yet when girls want to cover up..

This was my entire point. The argument works both ways so why call someone intolerant and selfish when the same words you use can work in reverse. Do I advocate making a game in such a way as not to bother people who have been traumatized? Not at all. All I'm saying is there has to be a line in the sand somewhere and calling people intolerant and selfish doesn't help us figure out where that line ought to be. People are always trying to push push push their "self-expression" on to others and when someone objects they are called names for it. The forums are filled with it. ..Also, not once have I told someone to glamour themselves differently