Who's Tanking?

Ok this may be a bit of a rant so apologies in advance....

I play a conjurer and have run the 4 dungeons in the main story so far which involves using the duty finder to get a group. I've had no issues so far actually getting a group, longest wait time was 5 mins today for toto rak, but once in the group there seems to be a common issue.

No one seems to understand who should be tanking. In the 4 groups I've had now the DPS runs off and starts pulling mobs before the tank can get near which then ends one of 2 ways either we wipe because i cant keep up healing everyone at once or we survive but only just usually losing 1 or 2 members who then have revive and be rebuffed etc...

It would really make my life easier as a healer if groups understood that the tank picks up the mob then everyone joins in. That way I can concentrate on healing the tank with the odd heal to DPS where needed.

Rant over...:D

Welcome to duty finder, you can expect more of the same right up to lvl 50. Your best bet is to join an organized and active free company(guild).

As a dps those guys are idiots if they run in and pull before tank gets there it is unnecessary and stupid. Zerg mentality is rampid in MMO"s and it is best to just join a guild who plays at your pace and smartly.

Yeah I've been kind of holding off on the guild/free company not sure why but maybe its the way forward

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Originally Posted by Dragonbuster

Yeah I've been kind of holding off on the guild/free company not sure why but maybe its the way forward

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I suggest you find a nice one and join it, much like a did. It makes the game so much funner.

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Originally Posted by Dragonbuster

Yeah I've been kind of holding off on the guild/free company not sure why but maybe its the way forward

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As someone who's also been leveling a healer by doing a lot of dungeons I understand how you feel. I suggest not getting frustrated over it and just looking at it as a challenge. Prioritize yourself then the tank then the dps. If the dps have aggro on many thing and you just can't keep them up, oh well! As long as most of the group lives (mostly you) then it's a success and you can just rez and move on. I think the biggest issue I've run into is not the dps pulling for the tank but the tank not understanding basic aggro and not being able to keep anything but the one he's focusing on while everything else runs to me. This is where our knock back spell comes in handy, especially once you get sleep because you can hit knock back to push it off to some remote location then sleep it. That usually keeps it CC'd till everything else is dead.

When I'm the first one to start a fate or dungeon I automatically play the tank role reguardless of my class. When there's enough people involved then I fall back to playing my class role.
So if you're playing in agroup to begin with let the tank class lead. If that means teaching someone how to tank then try to teach. Doesn't mean they will be naturals at it.

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Originally Posted by Dragonbuster

the DPS runs off and starts pulling mobs before the tank can get near

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And thats where I stop and just watch them die!

DPS should never~ever~never pull mobs, before or during a battle or even after. Regardless of how close the next mob is, a patrol thats getting away, etc etc etc, never pull mobs, its the tanks job 100% of the time, and only makes it more difficult on the healers as well the tank to acquire hate. The worst is when DPS pulls in advance and then runs around in circles or back to the healer, WTF does that accomplish!? {you're still going to get hit regardless of where/how you run} Go to the tank for fracks sake!!!

DPS should always stay behind the tank at all times and never run ahead either...

it helps to be vocal. tell the dps to hang back, tell the tank to pull etc. Maybe those dps don't understand what's happening. If they still don't listen, let the dps die. If the tank doesn't listen, leave.
I've done over 50 pugs now through DF, and with some clear comminucation, we almost always succeed in finishing the dungeon.( failed 2).
Most of my experiences with the DF were good to excellent though.
just communicate.

Brut

Communicate! I've done the same dungeons as the OP, all with the DF.
Only one group had a DPS how pulled mobs, but after a wipe "and some talking" he stopped.
The rest of the groups were a lot of fun, go in with an open mind and if you're not having fun, exit the dungeon.

As a lvl 50 healer I still see this in DF's a lot. It's something we get used to and at that point in the game it's a choice of who has priority for my heals. I tend to let the dps die instead of a group wiping due to stupidity. If the dps feels they would rather tank a instance they can also heal themselves. I will warn dps to let the tank do the tanking if they insist on trying to tank or I will just let them die and deal with a repair bill later. This may sound extreme but meh, it's their choice to flex their e-ego.

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Originally Posted by Khalus

And thats where I stop and just watch them die!

DPS should never~ever~never pull mobs, before or during a battle or even after. Regardless of how close the next mob is, a patrol thats getting away, etc etc etc, never pull mobs, its the tanks job 100% of the time, and only makes it more difficult on the healers as well the tank to acquire hate. The worst is when DPS pulls in advance and then runs around in circles or back to the healer, WTF does that accomplish!? {you're still going to get hit regardless of where/how you run} Go to the tank for fracks sake!!!

DPS should always stay behind the tank at all times and never run ahead either...

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I couldn't agree more...nothing makes me shake my head more than seeing a dps run around being chased by mobs. Sure, I can see trying to kite them, but if you are doing that, don't expect me to heal you and gain all your threat :p

I'm lvl 20, levelled up a healer to lvl 15, and I did the first couple of dungeons with it. I'm not quite sure what's the problem, at least at that low level just using AoE when in trouble did the job. I had an issue when they all run away in a different direction, and for some reason I simply couldn't reach the.. tank. Whom died once and we had no issue finishing the following enemies with a party of 3.

Or maybe it is because of the gears we were using, all players seemed experienced already.

What annoys me is im a lvl 43 whm and still when I join some groups players dont have a clue, no assist, cc being broke, tank not peeling etc etc, low level u expect this as ppl are new, but l43+... The times when I do join grps that k ow what to do, its pure fun and I enjoy it, I guess its downto ppl that have done nothing but fates to level up and now when they decide join df,s they simply are clueless!

When I did Garuda (story), which I believe is lvl 44, I had a dragoon in my party who head on attacked her, when I was just about to start explaining tactics... Curiously enough, after we - obviously - wiped and I finally got around to finish explaining, he actually did a pretty decent job, though.

I am lvl 49 pld tank and I get bitoched at all the time by dps and whm. Most of time dps never gives me a chance to firmly grab the aggro before starts nuking the mobs, and i bet 90% of them never even check the enmity gauge which mob they should nuke. As for whm or healer, they have no idea why the mobs is running all over the place and attacking everyone, so they always point their finger at the tank.

I bet everyone has never tanked before think tanking is the easiest job. :mad:

What's really awesome is when the healer runs in and starts attacking mobs before the tank... I've had that happen a few times as well.

Tell me about it. I am still a newbie at MMO's and was my first time tanking but i am learning quick.
Tam Tara i did with random people and somehow we made it to the end. Someone said Tank you should find a new class
Thing was they would run off ahead of me and i had a bugger of a time trying to keep up.
When i did get agro on pretty much every enemy i died a few times as the dps di not seem to be doing damage and the healer could not keep up healing me which in turn healing = agro
Now i have been doing Satasha, Copperbell and the Ifrit fight with FC members and we cleared the dungeons out in no time.

I had this in Toto Rak this weekend. Just asked the DPS to stop and make sure he was attacking what the tank was attacking. He did. Went smooth after that.

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Originally Posted by baopee

I am lvl 49 pld tank and I get bitoched at all the time by dps and whm. Most of time dps never gives me a chance to firmly grab the aggro before starts nuking the mobs, and i bet 90% of them never even check the enmity gauge which mob they should nuke. As for whm or healer, they have no idea why the mobs is running all over the place and attacking everyone, so they always point their finger at the tank.

I bet everyone has never tanked before think tanking is the easiest job. :mad:

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I hate when DPS (especially ranged dps) open up with everything that they can when all I've done is a single Tomahock throw while trying to position the mobs for an overpower and/or flash. Even worse if the healer throws Regen right off the bat. Makes me *face palm*.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

I hate when DPS (especially ranged dps) open up with everything that they can when all I've done is a single Tomahock throw while trying to position the mobs for an overpower and/or flash. Even worse if the healer throws Regen right off the bat. Makes me *face palm*.

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I never do that. For two reasons:

1. Half the time the tank doesn't mark the mobs, and I'm waiting a bit to see which mob he's actually making his main target.

2. Giving him a chance to establish hate.

My Free Company was not online early one morning and I said What Da HEck, Ill Try a random Duty Finder , ya ? I get into Brayflox and in this group the WhiteMage kept running ahead ( often b4 our current fight was quite finished ) and pulling the next mobs. Im sleeping the extras on our pulls, as a black mage does, and he purposefully would keep tabbing to them and waking them up.The second anything is on a healer, ill sleep that too till the tank gets to it, but he would wake those up too. He died 5 times and I asked why is he doing that - he responded with " bored". He then also says to me " hey, idiot, don't sleep things so much ". He continues doing this and dies 2 more times b4 the first boss fight. At the boss fight he pulls before the tank has crossed the line, but didn't die before he got caught up. However, he kept DPSing and not healing. Im a blackmage, and I dabbled in arcanist lore enough to have learned psykick - not that my heal amount counts for anything really :P - so basically im throwing him a heal here and there to keep him red-lining but not dead. But, alas, we wipe. White Mage then says " This isn't going to work if you don't keep things off the healer and then don't know boss fights. " He leaves group.

= D Not that all my random DF groups have been like this, but its been common enough that I feel anxiety waiting for it to queue and nervousness when we get started.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

I hate when DPS (especially ranged dps) open up with everything that they can when all I've done is a single Tomahock throw while trying to position the mobs for an overpower and/or flash. Even worse if the healer throws Regen right off the bat. Makes me *face palm*.

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Yeah as a ranged (Bard) I usually wait till he has control and has grabbed and established aggro.

If tank isn't marking kill order then I will use a sm AOE so can see which is dropping and hit that one. By that time he has aggro fully established a lay into the one mob and move to next that I see is dropping fast. If tank marks them makes it a lot easier and just go after the one marked after he has established himself.

I hate when people don't give tanks a chance to establish or zerg in. It always just causes issues that can be avoided if people didn't have the MMO zerg mentality.

I wonder how many of these 'rush in and throw everything' types are coming from GW2? No split of 'roles' on there, no dedicated tank, no dedicated healer. If they only played GW2 they won't have a clue! No excuse for not researching what they should be doing, but so many people never read instructions eh?

i found it to get a bit better after breyflox longstop, simply because no one ever passes there if they don't learn atleast some basics

you'll have plenty of other problems with df groups, but that one kinda fixed itself.

I hate it when the tank does not use flash
I hate it more when the tank tries to keep agro by dps instead of taunts

DPS can kill themselves easy, because when they die, the tank gets agro again (yes I let dps die). Tanks can whipe a group if they dont do they're job. And most tanks don't do they're job.

And as always healers gain the blame.

Left more groups because of a noob tank, then because of noob dps.

I've never had any bad luck in DF groups, but then again I've been doing raid main tanking in other MMOs for many years now. I've found it weird in the story dungeons in my DF runs, in that the DPS were assisting without being told to, and one guy was even marking and CCing targets. At level 17! Shocking!

Its called practice. Lol
I've started marking stuff at level 12.

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Originally Posted by Khalus

DPS should never~ever~never pull mobs

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Well, there's still the never-say-never rule. You may be right about melee DPS, but there can be valid reasons for ranged DPS characters to take over pulling mobs in certain situations. If your only character with ranged abilities is DPS and there's a group of more mobs than your group can handle all at once, it can be useful for your archer to pull one or two mobs away from the larger group, so they can be fought one or two at a time. It does take good coordination between your ranged DPS and your tank, however. The DPS needs to know when to pull another mob over and when to stop and let the tank take over aggro from it. All too many seem to forget the "stop and let the tank take over" part of that pattern.

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Originally Posted by Rhona

I wonder how many of these 'rush in and throw everything' types are coming from GW2? No split of 'roles' on there, no dedicated tank, no dedicated healer. If they only played GW2 they won't have a clue! No excuse for not researching what they should be doing, but so many people never read instructions eh?

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There was a time where MMOs had a DPS class be the puller to pull things to the tank. The mentality stated in the OP possibly stemmed from that

I agree that there are instances where DPS should pull for example where mobs are in a position that if the tank attempts to get close to pull they will aggro other mobs etc...

But when I sat watching DPS just run about pulling what they want and the tank is still finishing the last mob off (by now single handed) and even asks the DPS what they are doing and they are ignored then that is just senseless.

Hopefully the new votekick function will help iron out this kind of behaviours who knows!

One trick I learned LONG AGO in WoW whenever I was on my healers, or a rare moment as a DPS. I'd mark the tank.

There are a series of shape marks in this game that seem to have no purpose... I've begun putting the 'Square' one on tanks when on my "alt" that is leveling into healing.
I have the marking system on keybinds... so I can do this very quickly, and I've usually got the tank marked before we even move out from the loading spot.

Its silly, but its just one more visual cue to people that the 'Square' in the group is doing something different than the rest of us.

If you can't remember the name of the tank... I don't know. Even in raid size groups you should be familiar enough or be able to remember which name to click on. Personally, it's never been an issue for me. Even if I forget the name, there is always the class icon...

I'd add that if, as DPS or healer, you do accidentally catch the attention of the boss, don't kite it around and around the room. The tank can't get it off of you until he/she can catch up to it.

I had that happen the other night in Sastasha while playing my gladiator alt (my first time tanking in this game). The final boss fight started off with a rather long period of just chasing each other in circles. Once I finally managed to get close enough to get a couple attacks in, it only took a couple attacks and a flash to get the boss turned towards me like he belonged, and after that everyone settled down into their proper roles. The rest of the fight went really smooth, but that chase it started out with was both funny and frustrating at once.

(This rule applies mainly to boss fights. If instead, there are lots of enemies and a couple are on you while the tank is busy with several others, kiting can sometimes be a valid delay tactic. Just be careful where you run to.)