Solution to Problem of no Tanks for In-Progress Parties

At the lower levels, it can be an hour or more waiting for a tank to come if you lose your tank during a dungeon raid. Often, you never get a tank. I think this problem happens because it's easier to get gear from a dungeon raid as a tank than as any other job because tanks get no competition. In every dungeon raid, either the mages or the dps have to compete for gear. The tank never has to compete. I've done enough Brayflox runs, for instance, to know that each possible piece, whether mage, tank, or dps, loads at around the same frequency. That is the problem and the reason why tanks are harder to find. A mage might have to repeat the run a dozen times to get his or her gear because he or she had to compete for that gear, let alone because it didn't load on that run. Tanks, however, get their pieces when they load.

So the solution is simple: lower the load percentage for tank gear. Make it something like 40% for mage, 40% for dps, 20% for tank.

All tanks are at endgame running Amdapor keep and only amdapor keep thats the problem

So, wait...

The solution to not enough tanks for parties is to have it so less tank gear drops?

Less gear drops = tanks have to repeat dungeons more to get gear. Granted, not every tank cares, but I think there are enough people that do that we'd see good results. It's not a full solution, as there are simply more dps players, but it will keep tanks repeating dungeons and therefore increase the frequency of tanks joining in-progress parties.

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Originally Posted by Ollorin

Less gear drops = tanks have to repeat dungeons more to get gear. Granted, not every tank cares, but I think there are enough people that do that we'd see good results. It's not a full solution, as there are simply more dps players, but it will keep tanks repeating dungeons and therefore increase the frequency of tanks joining in-progress parties.

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While your solution has some merit to it, statistically speaking the reasons groups wait for tanks is because for the most the greater number of them aren't using DF randomly. Instead, they are queueing with structured groups, FCs and premades. There are less of them in the open system, more using the DF merely as a way to pop into dungeons repeatedly. So the gearing distribution wouldn't solve the problem. One way to do so would be to incentivize tanks for jumping into the DF with a large number of randoms, and actually use the DF for more than dungeon-hopping. They must contribute to the community.

Punish the already dwindling supply tanks are by making it harder for them to get gear.
Genius.

^ Emsix has it right.

People have this idea that the way to improve their experience is to punish others and it's getting absurd.

Like it or not, the thing to do is give in-demand roles incentive to join groups, and incentive to join in-progress groups. Anyone can play a tank or healer, so anyone can take advantage of this.

It's not punishment, it's appropriate balance. It's simply too easy for tanks to get gear compared to other jobs. The other solution would be to make mage gear or dps gear randomly able to load *with* tank gear whenever tank gear loads. That would also help.

As a healer, I often join parties in progress groups, I love making people happy. ^_^

Nope.

The solution is simply to have the "Join in progress" tickbox enabled by Default.

Most people don't even notice it or forget to activate it.

So how does your plan factor in when tank gear drops, the tank already has it, and it goes to a damage dealer or healer who will possibly several months down the line decide to start up a tank and use the stockpiled gear that they have to skip having to do dungeons at all?

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Originally Posted by neizero

Nope.

The solution is simply to have the "Join in progress" tickbox enabled by Default.

Most people don't even notice it or forget to activate it.

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this. not sure why they ever made it an option, it would definitely reduce queue times by a noticeable amount if it was enabled by default.

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Originally Posted by Ollorin

It's not punishment, it's appropriate balance. ...

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No, it certainly is punishment.

Why should I have to try more times for my gear. I already have to work harder than you in my role, and I'm the first to blame most times a wipe happens. People think it's all roses and glory for tanks. It isn't, the reason some tanks are suck ****s is because we get trolled too. I've had more troubles out of ifrit's bow archers than I have out of relic archers. They think that the target I'm marking is just a suggestion for everyone else, but they're safe to attack whatever they like whenever they like.

Btw, I'm nearly full darklight, accessories too (except for legpiece), and I still haven't seen hoplite ring drop, and aside from 200~ from ifrit, I've gotten all my mythos from AK.

Oh, and if you want a faster queue, level a tank.

All my jobs kill slow butI know the solution to that. If I want to kill faster, I should level a dps.

You can already do dungeons in whites, you get AF gear at 50, and token gear from CM/AK.

I got a pld 50 and war 50. Used to queue CM as tank for farming tombstones.

Now I queue as healer instead. Takes 3 times as long but... I don't have to deal with DPS peeps going all out at everyturn.

Seriously DPS guys WHICH MMO out there taught you that insane parser DPS and AoE = everything you need to do?

Thats not the REASON tanks dont join a group in progress, thats just your idea of incentive to have them do more runs NOT in progress.

There is a REASON tanks dont pick groups in progress.

Roughly 0-2 times a day I pick the "Party in progress" option as i level up, but after 1 run, I usually regret picking it, as its filled with incompetent team mates.

I dont mean those who need practice doing the content, but those who out right REFUSE to work together, making it impossible to win.

Let me put it more simply.

These are not people who fail to kill the bees or remove doom in Qarn, these are people who say "No" or "You're wrong" when you explain the mechanics, and ask them to do it.

They are in denial that the reason they died, was due to doom, or final sting, instead its "lol l2p tank, keep me alive!"

and all the terrible players that frustrate Tanks from even wanting to tank.

I do sign up, hoping that maybe it was the tank who had to go, for w/e real life issue, and not because one or more ppl are making the run impossible.

But 9 out of 10 times, its usually someone else F'ing it up for everyone else.

So, if you're a tank, and things aren't working, WHY would I choose to pick a group in progress, knowing its most likely a bunch of jerks, when I can just pick a fresh group, and have a much higher likelihood of it being a group of friendly players who want to work together?

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Originally Posted by neizero

Nope.

The solution is simply to have the "Join in progress" tickbox enabled by Default.

Most people don't even notice it or forget to activate it.

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I WOULD agree, if it weren't for the fact it F's up the storyline.

If you enter a dungeon that has cutscenes, and u jump straight to the last boss and kill it, every cut scene up till then, is skipped, and you'll never be able to view it in the journal.

Its perma locked out.

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Originally Posted by Ollorin

It's not punishment, it's appropriate balance. It's simply too easy for tanks to get gear compared to other jobs. The other solution would be to make mage gear or dps gear randomly able to load *with* tank gear whenever tank gear loads. That would also help.

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Think outside the box dude. Do the opposite. Make Dps gear drops at 10% so they get depress and QQ and switch to tanks and healers because their drop rates = 45% each.

There is a reward/incentive system for high demand roles coming soon.
And thats all we need. If you are in queue for a long time, its not because there aren't enough Tanks playing the game as a whole, its that we tanks prefer to play with Friends and not trust that the DF will spit players out with the brainpower to play properly.

Also, if you really felt there is a shortage of Tanks, be a part of the solution and level up a Tank.
Or make Friends who are Tanks.
The Duty Finder was built to make it easier to find a group, not to be the *only* way to get groups.

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Originally Posted by TheWitcher

All tanks are at endgame running Amdapor keep and only amdapor keep thats the problem

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Dont you mean all tanks that have nothing better to do all weekend then play final fantasy are at endgame running AK!

As a tank, friends wanna join me to party so rarely i use DF. In some of case, use DF clicking In progress and withdraw searching 1/4 or 2/4 AK, to skip trash or join last boss. Sometimes will be fine and other i meet the guy who caused theirs partners left.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

So, if you're a tank, and things aren't working, WHY would I choose to pick a group in progress, knowing its most likely a bunch of jerks, when I can just pick a fresh group, and have a much higher likelihood of it being a group of friendly players who want to work together?

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Basically, if I join a Praetorium/Castrum in progress which have killed a few bosses already, I know they are probably bads but I also know I can carry them for 10 mins and get my 100 philos quicker than starting a fresh run with better players.

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Originally Posted by HumsterMKX

Think outside the box dude. Do the opposite. Make Dps gear drops at 10% so they get depress and QQ and switch to tanks and healers because their drop rates = 45% each.

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This is the actual solution. :)

As my 2nd main combat class, I rolled marauder, because people are saying all over forum warriors suck soooo hard and I know there is a massive shortage of tanks. So yeah, that motivated me to actually play it.

The more you penalize dps, the more will switch to tank role. Supply and demand :P.

I'm a tank and I'll be honest I never tick "in progress". If I queue for a dungeon I want to do the whole dungeon not just the last boss or hardest boss. Parties that lost their tank probably lost it for a good reason, you were making his/her life so re-queuing and starting over was preferable.

Since doing Relic I've gathered a nice number of DDs and healers on my friends list which I can create pre-made groups to queue with where I know everyone will work together without flaming and rage quitting.

If SE want to incentivize me back into the duty finder queues or groups in progress take a leaf out of WoW's book and offer bonus tombstones or a treasure box with a bonus drop for it. Tanks are the least played and highest gear requirement, don't make them even less fun to play trying to solve a perceived problem.

No. The solution is simply to make in-progress parties compulsory.

I.e. every single player or semi-parties who join the DF will first be distributed into in-progress content.

With one exception: all first-timers get new dungeons and never join in-progress.

Make it a norm to join in-progress.

Personally that would just be a deal breaker for me with the duty finder. I'd just make a group on my server and then queue to be sure I got a clean instance.

This is probably why SE haven't implemented it like that.

I obviously have no actual stats to back this up but I very much doubt based on my experience that many people leave groups based on a genuine need to exit the game due to a real life interuption.

The vast majority leave because they don't like the group they are in. Maybe everyone should just play nice with each other and join in progress wouldn't be needed.

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Originally Posted by Ollorin

Less gear drops = tanks have to repeat dungeons more to get gear. Granted, not every tank cares, but I think there are enough people that do that we'd see good results. It's not a full solution, as there are simply more dps players, but it will keep tanks repeating dungeons and therefore increase the frequency of tanks joining in-progress parties.

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I like that you are thinking outside of the box, but frankly this still will not work. I am levelling a tank to progress through the story quickly (as I have a 50 MNK already, but got tired of 1hr+ queues just to complete the story line dungeons etc.) - but the dungeon gear means nothing to me, and I doubt it means much else to many others.

Sticking with your Brayflox example, I have run it 3 times. I have sheild/head and i'm not bothered about any other pieces, so I won't be running it anymore on tank. Granted, I have a high level ARM and can HQ my own armour, but even the NQ is good enough to level with, and cheap as chips on the Markets. The levelling progression is so quick that the Brayflox drops are obsolete within a matter of hours, and there is no incentive to grind it out when I pass it so quickly and I am ready for the next tier.

Thus, your idea of making "Gear for tanks more rare, so they will grind it out more" doesn't work, as the tanks will simply out-level the gear.

The solutions which remain are:

Allow other classes to tank (or at least queue as tank, and have 2 x DPS off-tank somehow - e.g. MNKs get a better 'earth stance' but at the same time a penalty to DPS)

or

Slow the rate of levelling, so make people want to run low level dungeons over and over for gear that will last.

Less drop chance for tanks? Do the dungeon once - buy GC gear and get to 50 so you can do AK runs for tomes.

That's what will happen.

They don't do in progress groups cause they have most the time gotten a few chests already so joining mid run they miss out on loot

Tanks should spend triple more tomestones than the other classes imo.




/sarcasm off

How is this fair to me, who actually joins In progress as a tank?

You have to take into account who you victimize when you come up with your "solutions".

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Originally Posted by Ollorin

At the lower levels, it can be an hour or more waiting for a tank to come if you lose your tank during a dungeon raid. Often, you never get a tank. I think this problem happens because it's easier to get gear from a dungeon raid as a tank than as any other job because tanks get no competition. In every dungeon raid, either the mages or the dps have to compete for gear. The tank never has to compete. I've done enough Brayflox runs, for instance, to know that each possible piece, whether mage, tank, or dps, loads at around the same frequency. That is the problem and the reason why tanks are harder to find. A mage might have to repeat the run a dozen times to get his or her gear because he or she had to compete for that gear, let alone because it didn't load on that run. Tanks, however, get their pieces when they load.

So the solution is simple: lower the load percentage for tank gear. Make it something like 40% for mage, 40% for dps, 20% for tank.

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lmao this post deserves to be screenshot and put on imgur.

"The solution to not having enough tanks in the game is to reduce the reward for being a tank in the game. THAT will produce more tanks! =D =D =D =D

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Right guys?

...

Guys?"

Roll a tank and quit QQing?

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Originally Posted by Blazn

Roll a tank and quit QQing?

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Or make friends with tanks.

I almost never join DF because I have an active FC, but even with the few times I have gone into DF as a tank, I still abandoned a duty once as tank because of a lancer who was being stupid after being asked not to. I didn't rage quit the duty, but I got better things to do with my time. I spent the 15 minute timeout enjoying some crafting, then queued with full FC group and had a smooth, enjoyable run.

Edit to say: I would never join an in progress DF as a tank - chances are you would be taking on a problem group that some one else would rather spend 15 minutes watching gold spammer shouts in Ul'dah than continue with. The solution to getting a tank in an in-progress group is "l2p" and on those rare occasions when there is a technical problem and the tank gets booted, suck it up and re-queue.